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10.8 FSD

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If Tesla is able to expand regenerative braking in AutoPilot to go all the way to 0 mph (no physical use of the actual brakes), why can't Tesla add that feature for cars that currently don't have that feature when not even using AP/FSD?
I'd love to be able to do one pedal driving, but my 2017 Model S currently can't do that.
Could you clarify "can't do that"? I've been driving my new Model Y for only a few weeks and have no experience with other models, so perhaps I'm missing what you're saying. The regenerative braking absolutely enables one-pedal driving in most situations, but not in unplanned hard-braking situations where the stopping power of the regenerative braking (at least as implemented in the firmware) is insufficient by itself. If you plan ahead and become good at feathering the accelerator just right, you can mostly avoid using the friction brakes (i.e. the brake pedal). Admittedly however, sometimes this would result in a stopping trajectory that may be a bit too slow and may annoy drivers behind you even if you are happy with it.

This last comment leads to a point that I've thought about several times (and may be what you are getting at too), which is that the retarding action that we call "regenerative braking" could easily be supplemented by deliberate motor-reversal torque. I don't see any reason why the motors can't operate with as much reverse torque as they do forward torque (but then I didn't design the motor system). This kind of enhanced motor-braking would not be entirely regenerative; it would benefit somewhat from regeneration but would also need to draw some net battery capacity to increase the effect of motor-reversal braking.

So to me, the interesting design change would be to intelligently couple the brake-pedal control to implement:
a) motor-reversal action for primary braking beyond regeneration alone,
b) conventional disc friction brakes only for secondary hard braking (emergency and safety-backup),
c) friction brakes for holding the car after the above a) and b) methods have brought it to a stop.

Method a) would greatly reduce the wear on the friction-brake pads (though said wear is already less in an EV than in a conventional car), and continue to give some measure of regenerative benefit even in hard stops. I don't really know for sure they don't already do this, but I haven't ever seen it explained as such. Method b) involves a long-understood fundamental safety principle, that cars need to be able to stop faster than they can accelerate for a few very good reasons. Method c) is there to allow essentially zero energy use in keeping the car still, and also creates almost no pad wear in use.

Pertaining to your FSD example, the car in autonomous mode need not use the pedals at all. All of the above braking modes could be deployed as needed by the FSD computer, mostly modes a) and c), again with b) reserved for unusually hard or emergency stopping only.

Interestingly also, the car could he programmed to perform a brake-validation self-test procedure at startup and/or occasionally while stopped: apply motor torque very briefly and verify that the wheels are not moving by even one click of the sensors. If they do move, that's an indication of a friction brake degradation or failure, and the motor control can be used as a brake substitute, presumably with a limited operational envelope until the friction brakes are properly repaired.
 
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I currently disengage Beta as I'm approaching situations where I know the car will have to slowdown to maximize Regen and minimize brake use. I really hope the tweaks they're making let Beta do that by itself so I can just let Beta do its thing instead. It sounds promising at least.
Agree 100%. I think there should literally be an FSD setting that is called "max regen use" where it applies full regen earlier and minimizes (none of possible) friction brakes. This is how I drive
 
I'm on 10.6.1 and I just auto-parked at a Supercharger again today, like yesterday. It DOES seem harder to engage, but it's there.

I don't agree with the "more trouble" view of FSD-beta. I don't have it on all the time, unlike Freeway NOA, that is on 100% of the highway time. I'm a hard Core 3 year autopilot user, and as I've gotten used to it, the FSD beta is now on about 75% of my City street driving. I couldn't care less about "Cool" or never intervening.

There are situations I can handle better. Like today where the car wanted to change lanes to go around a car making a left turn, and IMHO it wasn't really worth it. I'm just using it and it's working quite well as of 10.6.1. Maybe it's because I'm totally attentive, treat it friendly, lead and don't abuse it, kinda like a dog ;-)

Just went on a 600 mile round trip from SF to Nevada, snow, ice, small towns and City driving with construction detours etc etc. I didn't want to jinx it by saying it, but it was pretty much perfect.

Today freeway then a lot of fancy navigation on city back streets to bypass a traffic jam and get to a shopping center and Supercharger, with crazy heavy shopper traffic. Two words: flawless, and stunning. If they said this is all there is, I'd say: ok, it's useful, fine.
 
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If Tesla is able to expand regenerative braking in AutoPilot to go all the way to 0 mph (no physical use of the actual brakes), why can't Tesla add that feature for cars that currently don't have that feature when not even using AP/FSD?
I'd love to be able to do one pedal driving, but my 2017 Model S currently can't do that.
Hardware limitation that can't be overcome. Tesla used 2 induction motors at that time. You have to have a permanent magnet motor to do full regen to 0 RPM's.
 
Hardware limitation that can't be overcome. Tesla used 2 induction motors at that time. You have to have a permanent magnet motor to do full regen to 0 RPM's.
But you can reverse an induction motor, so as I wrote above, i think you could still do motor braking down to 0MPH. No it won't be "regen" ie charging the pack, but it can do the stopping job without relying on friction braking. I think Tesla simply has not chosen to do this so far. I guess it's understandable if the goal is max battery efficiency with those motors.
 
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But you can reverse an induction motor, so as I wrote above, i think you could still do motor braking down to 0MPH. No it won't be "regen" ie charging the pack, but it can do the stopping job without relying on friction braking. I think Tesla simply has not chosen to do this so far. I guess it's understandable if the goal is max battery efficiency with those motors.
You could but it doesn't make sense since it would cost cents to do (got me 3¢ there:D). The point of regen/one pedal is to recoup energy. Not expend more energy to do one pedal.
 
Honestly the biggest real-world use case advantage of having FSD Beta is that you are no longer capped at +5MPH when on Autopilot on city streets. Aside from that, it's not a feature that you use aside from when wanting to test it out for the sake of testing it out. It's literally "Ok, Im going to do some testing now...have to pay extra extra attention." It's way more stressful than normal driving as you have to be fully engaged in watching what the car is doing and you actually start learning yourself on where you expect the car to mess up and you are usually correct. When it doesnt mess up, its like, that was pretty cool. Regular just driving on a straight road or on the freeway is really no different than normal Autopilot.
I find 10.5 to be pretty useful….
 
You could but it doesn't make sense since it would cost cents to do (got me 3¢ there:D). The point of regen/one pedal is to recoup energy. Not expend more energy to do one pedal.
Yes I see the point but this crossover of no-regen gain happens at a fairly low RPM. If it's say below 10mph, the energy input required to decelerate that last 10mph (5mph average velocity over that interval) is quite small due to the mv^2 relationship. Like roughly 50 times less than that required for the braking interval from 40mph down to 30mph, or roughly 100 times less than the interval from 55 down to 45.

So I don't think it's an unreasonable discussion to have because the loss of regen is a very small effect for normal driving profiles. But as you say, this is not even the same issue with a permanent magnet motor. I'm newer to the Tesla world and so I'm interested in these topics, but I get that the older model S drivetrain is not going to be re-engineered at this point. It still seems like a potentially relevant discussion when considering the newer cars.
 
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If Tesla is able to expand regenerative braking in AutoPilot to go all the way to 0 mph (no physical use of the actual brakes), why can't Tesla add that feature for cars that currently don't have that feature when not even using AP/FSD?
I'd love to be able to do one pedal driving, but my 2017 Model S currently can't do that.
Is your regen turned on in your settings? I had a 2018 MS and had no problem one pedal driving. I might be miss reading what your stating as inoperative at all or when you get close to 0 MPH. either way mine worked find as does for my 2020 MS. Taping the brake/gas on the 2018 would release the hold function and allow the car to creep forward. I have had AP on both cars. I dont know if its an issue for non AP cars.
 
If Tesla is able to expand regenerative braking in AutoPilot to go all the way to 0 mph (no physical use of the actual brakes), why can't Tesla add that feature for cars that currently don't have that feature when not even using AP/FSD?
I'd love to be able to do one pedal driving, but my 2017 Model S currently can't do that.

Pretty sure that's because your car doesn't have a PM motor. IIRC induction motor has a hard time regenning to zero. but they could simulate it with a blending of friction brakes when approaching a stop. I'm with you; I have a 2014 S that can't do 1 pedal driving. But loving it in the Model 3.
 
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If Tesla is able to expand regenerative braking in AutoPilot to go all the way to 0 mph (no physical use of the actual brakes), why can't Tesla add that feature for cars that currently don't have that feature when not even using AP/FSD?
I'd love to be able to do one pedal driving, but my 2017 Model S currently can't do that.
I don't know if that's physically possible - the resistance of a generator is proportional to the power being generated so at very low speeds the resistance drops to 0 meaning you generally need some form of physical braking. It's possible to minimize it but I doubt you can completely eliminate it.
 
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I don't know if that's physically possible - the resistance of a generator is proportional to the power being generated so at very low speeds the resistance drops to 0 meaning you generally need some form of physical braking. It's possible to minimize it but I doubt you can completely eliminate it.

What you want to be able to do is at least have the option of reversing to 0.
But since you want to exercise your brakes at times, probably just applying the brakes is fine.
 
What you want to be able to do is at least have the option of reversing to 0.
But since you want to exercise your brakes at times, probably just applying the brakes is fine.
There are two reasons to use regenerative braking - the primary reason is to recoup as much energy as possible to maximize range and efficiency. The second is to minimize wear on the physical brake system. If the regenerative braking is used down to, say, 5 mph, the energy lost and wear and tear incurred by using the physical brakes is minimal so you still achieve the goal.

The other thing people need to realize is that there are losses intrinsic to the system - heat generated by the motor, bearings, wires and the battery itself is due to the internal resistances and less than perfect efficiency of these components so you will always lose some energy. The goal is just to minimize the loss.
 
There are two reasons to use regenerative braking - the primary reason is to recoup as much energy as possible to maximize range and efficiency. The second is to minimize wear on the physical brake system. If the regenerative braking is used down to, say, 5 mph, the energy lost and wear and tear incurred by using the physical brakes is minimal so you still achieve the goal.

The other thing people need to realize is that there are losses intrinsic to the system - heat generated by the motor, bearings, wires and the battery itself is due to the internal resistances and less than perfect efficiency of these components so you will always lose some energy. The goal is just to minimize the loss.
Good points.
I'd add that single pedal driving with regenerative braking can be a very smooth driving experience for both driver and passenger. When I used to drive an ICE car I always tried to do 'limo stops' for the comfort of everyone in the vehicle. I've continued that driving style in a Tesla and it's much easier to do when using regenerative braking.

 
Infact, unlike us, FSD May be able to coast when needed and regen brake when needed. The efficiency can be higher than just single pedal driving.

I kinda wish that AP/FSD didn't respect the set speed as an absolute. It's using regen on downhills to maintain that speed when the more efficient thing to do is to coast and pick up more speed. Would love a +5 or +10mph offset for this.
 
Is your regen turned on in your settings? I had a 2018 MS and had no problem one pedal driving. I might be miss reading what your stating as inoperative at all or when you get close to 0 MPH. either way mine worked find as does for my 2020 MS. Taping the brake/gas on the 2018 would release the hold function and allow the car to creep forward. I have had AP on both cars. I dont know if its an issue for non AP cars.
You had a Raven which added a permanent magnet motor to the front.
 
Autopark worked for 1 update for me. I haven't had it in over a month in my refreshed S
I've been following the update notes and the 2021 Plaid S has the vacant lot auto park. Your car seems to get more features sooner than my older Teslas. Enjoy!
Prior to 44.6 the other models did not have that feature. My Model Y still has the bounded auto park but my Model S lost it when I started the beta FSD program. with v10.3. see sig for details.
 
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