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19" and 21" Tire Wear (informal) Survey
- Thread starter lolachampcar
- Start date
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
TR may be having trouble stocking the Pilots thus "suggesting" the Pirellis. It seems a bit disingenuous given Tesla would likely not approve of the swap.
I too do not care for Pirellis and have removed them from other cars I have owned. This is a personal preference and not based on any concrete reasoning.
I too do not care for Pirellis and have removed them from other cars I have owned. This is a personal preference and not based on any concrete reasoning.
Yesterday I received confirmation from a Tesla employee in Service that Model S vehicles with Air Suspension will have a higher tire wear rate than a non-air configuration. As the suspension is lowered at speeds higher than 55mph, the camber of the wheels is adjusted to "provide the least amount of wind resistance, the highest rate of grip, and lowest center of gravity to improve balance."
Additionally, I received confirmation that using Standard regen decreases the tire life because it "adds extra stress to the tires as they work in conjunction of the motor to slow the vehicle."
My rear tires had 3/32 remaining after only 5,972 miles. The fact that I most always drive with standard regen may have something to do with the poor tire life. Hope this helps explain why some of us are seeing higher than usual tire wear.
Additionally, I received confirmation that using Standard regen decreases the tire life because it "adds extra stress to the tires as they work in conjunction of the motor to slow the vehicle."
My rear tires had 3/32 remaining after only 5,972 miles. The fact that I most always drive with standard regen may have something to do with the poor tire life. Hope this helps explain why some of us are seeing higher than usual tire wear.
DJF,
I just have to give a BS shout out to the service center for white washing that information.
Suspensions are designed such that the upper link length is shorter than the lower link length (links going form the chassis to the upright). As the upright moves up (car lowers) the top will pull in more than the bottom. This geometry is designed to provided increased camber when cornering hard to put more contact patch on the ground (and keep the inside of the tire from lifting).
So, they are telling you the truth in that the car is lowered to reduce drag and lowering the car will increase camber thus further loading the inside shoulder. The part about balance and highest grip is pure BS to make you feel better about sooooooo much camber at highway speeds
I guess you could make an argument that running on the very corner edge of the tire provides less rolling resistance but that would really be pushing it given the wear rate to be expected.
Lastly, the post above yours really says it all for me. People that should be getting all the wear if driving style was the cause are not necessarily seeing high wear. 1/32" difference in 4,400 miles is AWESOME. I saw that in 800 miles on my first P85. Something else is going on here.
I just have to give a BS shout out to the service center for white washing that information.
Suspensions are designed such that the upper link length is shorter than the lower link length (links going form the chassis to the upright). As the upright moves up (car lowers) the top will pull in more than the bottom. This geometry is designed to provided increased camber when cornering hard to put more contact patch on the ground (and keep the inside of the tire from lifting).
So, they are telling you the truth in that the car is lowered to reduce drag and lowering the car will increase camber thus further loading the inside shoulder. The part about balance and highest grip is pure BS to make you feel better about sooooooo much camber at highway speeds
I guess you could make an argument that running on the very corner edge of the tire provides less rolling resistance but that would really be pushing it given the wear rate to be expected.Lastly, the post above yours really says it all for me. People that should be getting all the wear if driving style was the cause are not necessarily seeing high wear. 1/32" difference in 4,400 miles is AWESOME. I saw that in 800 miles on my first P85. Something else is going on here.
Standard 19" 85. 5300 miles and my tread is at 9/32 on all 4 grooves on all 4 tires. I have been doing a lot of rotations early on to stabilize wear. For reference i have averaged 313 w/ m over the 5300 miles.
i consider the standard regen statement to be nonsense unless one is a total digital driver. On or off. The regen simply takes the place of normal braking action in a ICE car and shouldn't increase tire wear. Certainly my wear numbers support my contentions. I drive the Tesla just like I have driven myICE cars. Smooth on and smooth off as much as possible. The only difference is that the regen takes the place of brake application. BTW, I have historically gotten 60,000 ish on a set of brake pads. Usually 50 - 50 surface street/highway mix. Even did 35k+ on BMW's.
i consider the standard regen statement to be nonsense unless one is a total digital driver. On or off. The regen simply takes the place of normal braking action in a ICE car and shouldn't increase tire wear. Certainly my wear numbers support my contentions. I drive the Tesla just like I have driven myICE cars. Smooth on and smooth off as much as possible. The only difference is that the regen takes the place of brake application. BTW, I have historically gotten 60,000 ish on a set of brake pads. Usually 50 - 50 surface street/highway mix. Even did 35k+ on BMW's.
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At around 10k miles we got a new set of rear tires on our car. Replaced Contis with Contis at the local Sears, since Costco couldn't tell us if they'd even be able to get Pilots within a month. Would prolly have gone to local service center, except that our 'local' is over 100 miles away currently (they are putting one within 10 miles, my guess is before end of year it'll be active).
As part of working with the car, I ended up getting an alignment check (free!) and it was found that the rears were toe-out (heavy wear on inside of tire) at the limit of spec.
Anybody getting LESS than 10k miles on a set of Conti rear tires should really have the alignment checked. It is ridiculously easy to do and free at some shops.
As part of working with the car, I ended up getting an alignment check (free!) and it was found that the rears were toe-out (heavy wear on inside of tire) at the limit of spec.
Anybody getting LESS than 10k miles on a set of Conti rear tires should really have the alignment checked. It is ridiculously easy to do and free at some shops.
Jason,
You are the second person I have seen post that their car had TOE OUT in the rear (CarreraScott was the other ???). Anyway, toe out is great on a road course if you want a car to rotate under acceleration. Other than that, it is a big no no on just about anything else. It will also destroy tires which makes it a huge smoking gun in my book.
Thanks for posting that info!
You are the second person I have seen post that their car had TOE OUT in the rear (CarreraScott was the other ???). Anyway, toe out is great on a road course if you want a car to rotate under acceleration. Other than that, it is a big no no on just about anything else. It will also destroy tires which makes it a huge smoking gun in my book.
Thanks for posting that info!
> The regen simply takes the place of normal braking action in a ICE car and shouldn't increase tire wear. [gtimbers]
Except regen force is all applied to the rear tires; the fronts get a free pass. ICEs use 4 wheel braking.
@lolachampcar - So at this point in your investigations, whose alignment specs are the best to use, TM's or Hunter's (if Hunter's are any different)? Or are you making your own optimized specs? I.e., what should a new owner have her Model S aligned to at a private shop?
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Except regen force is all applied to the rear tires; the fronts get a free pass. ICEs use 4 wheel braking.
@lolachampcar - So at this point in your investigations, whose alignment specs are the best to use, TM's or Hunter's (if Hunter's are any different)? Or are you making your own optimized specs? I.e., what should a new owner have her Model S aligned to at a private shop?
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wycolo,
All I can say is that I have put near zero toe in the rear for both my MS. My pre and post spec sheets for my P85+ are on my web site (link below) but, if memory serves me, I think I went for 0.2 degrees of total toe in across the rear and zero thrust angle. I really need to measure the car at standard and low several times to repeatable results then post the camber and toe changes to be expected when the car is rolling down the highway (in low). There will be camber gain (increase in negative camber) as the car lowers but should not be a significant change in toe (bump steer). It would be good to confirm this but it will take a good shop that rolls the car out between ride height changes else we will get false data.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/tesla_model_s.htm
All I can say is that I have put near zero toe in the rear for both my MS. My pre and post spec sheets for my P85+ are on my web site (link below) but, if memory serves me, I think I went for 0.2 degrees of total toe in across the rear and zero thrust angle. I really need to measure the car at standard and low several times to repeatable results then post the camber and toe changes to be expected when the car is rolling down the highway (in low). There will be camber gain (increase in negative camber) as the car lowers but should not be a significant change in toe (bump steer). It would be good to confirm this but it will take a good shop that rolls the car out between ride height changes else we will get false data.
http://www.lolachampcar.com/images/Tesla/tesla_model_s.htm
teslasguy
MSP P#1117
I have a P85 with 21" Contis. I ran 19" wheels/tires for the winter but put my 21s on in May for the summer.
I now have around 4000 miles on the 21" Contis (8000 miles total on the car) and am starting to see noticeable wear on the inside of the rears.
I have an appt. at the Norristown SC Friday for alignment. They said (as has been noted on here) that there is no adjustment for camber in the rear and the only thing they can adjust is toe.
It sounds like from what I've read on here that the toe is probably the real culprit anyway.
The Norristown SC doesn't have an alignment machine yet so they are sending it out to a Bavarian Specialties shop.
The guys at that shop said they can set the adjustment at whatever I want. They normally work on "performance" cars like Bimmers.
I can't quickly find the recommendations on this forum/thread as to the rear toe for the 21" wheels.
Seems like I recall seeing a recommendation to go about neutral.
Jerry, Lola, does that sound right?
I'll probably ask them to rotate the tires as well after the alignment.
I now have around 4000 miles on the 21" Contis (8000 miles total on the car) and am starting to see noticeable wear on the inside of the rears.
I have an appt. at the Norristown SC Friday for alignment. They said (as has been noted on here) that there is no adjustment for camber in the rear and the only thing they can adjust is toe.
It sounds like from what I've read on here that the toe is probably the real culprit anyway.
The Norristown SC doesn't have an alignment machine yet so they are sending it out to a Bavarian Specialties shop.
The guys at that shop said they can set the adjustment at whatever I want. They normally work on "performance" cars like Bimmers.
I can't quickly find the recommendations on this forum/thread as to the rear toe for the 21" wheels.
Seems like I recall seeing a recommendation to go about neutral.
Jerry, Lola, does that sound right?
I'll probably ask them to rotate the tires as well after the alignment.
My numbers are in the post above yours.
Do a search on "alignment specifications" and you will get a Tesla pdf spec. sheet. I'm not sure how old it is as I seem to remember that the current service center rear camber numbers are slightly (0.2 degrees) greater than the pdf.
Do a search on "alignment specifications" and you will get a Tesla pdf spec. sheet. I'm not sure how old it is as I seem to remember that the current service center rear camber numbers are slightly (0.2 degrees) greater than the pdf.
teslasguy
MSP P#1117
I'm taking the car to the SC tomorrow morning and they are then taking it to Bavarian Specialties in King of Prussia for the alignment.
simplesolar
Member
I am at 3,200 miles
Rears are at
inside 7/12
outside 8/12
Fronts are at
Inside 8/12
outside 9/12
Rears are at
inside 7/12
outside 8/12
Fronts are at
Inside 8/12
outside 9/12
Well... it could be due to my complete ignorance of what the terms really mean. I thought it was 'toe in' but when describing similar wear pattern an earlier post called it 'toe out'. Now I gotta check the alignment figures...
Front Toe: +.06? .07? (a bit past the 0.05 mark; spec is -0.15 to 0.05)
Front Camber Lft: -1.12 (a little past the -1.1 limit; spec is -0.4 to -1.1)
Front Camber Rgt: centered (-0.75)
Rear Toe: 0.05? (significantly past the 0.10 limit; the spec is 0.10 to 0.30)
Rear Camber Lft: -2.11 (a little past the -2.1 limit; spec is -1.4 to -2.1)
Rear Camber Rgt: -2.1 (right on the limit)
Sooo, dunno how that measures up to the others. Also this was measured at 'normal' rather than 'low' suspension. Dunno what it would look like at 'low'.
Oooh, one important note however -- the reason I was having everything checked at that point is because of odd sound from rear tires; turns out I had the issue with loose nut on adjustment and my wheel bearings were wobbling from wear. The car was towed in for service that afternoon after we figured out the problem (the local Sears guys were really great).
Follow-up edit:
Just read the link from LolaChampCar above and now understand a bit more. I think I'll try to get the alignment set to the other side of spec (-1.0 to -1.4 rather than current -2.1+). While I don't have the same race experience, the car does track ridiculously well and I think the -2.1 camber on standard is overkill.
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Jason,
When talking about toe, people normally say XYZ Toe In or ABC Toe out. The value is typically the combined amount of toe from each wheel. The in and out part refers to which direction the wheels are pointing with respect to each other. Toe in is normal for a street car and means the tires are pointed (slightly) inward with respect to each other and the direction of travel. Cross your eyes with your eyes pointing inward and you get the picture.
Now camber is the real rub (pun intended).
You have 2.1 degrees of negative camber (top of the wheel is rocked inward towards the chassis) at Standard ride height (which is the proper air suspension setting for the alignment spec.s from Tesla). That negative value will increase as the car goes to Low on the highway. Yes, you are at the limit in the wrong or bad for the tires direction. No, you can not adjust it. This is the issue. Tesla built MS with FIXED camber in the rear. The camber is determined by the length of the upper control link and the lower a-arm. Both have fixed, non adjustable mounting points. Unlike the toe link which has an eccentric adjuster on the inboard end, you simply can not adjust the upper link or lower a-arm to change camber (apart from what Tesla calls "bolt slop" which is loosening the bolts, biasing each joint then tightening the attachment bolts again). This lack of adjustment for camber is what drove me to fabricate replacement upper arms that were slightly longer (which stands the wheel more upright).
And yes, I too think -2.1 degrees of camber is over kill but remember that Tesla HAD to do this to pass stability control regulations.
When talking about toe, people normally say XYZ Toe In or ABC Toe out. The value is typically the combined amount of toe from each wheel. The in and out part refers to which direction the wheels are pointing with respect to each other. Toe in is normal for a street car and means the tires are pointed (slightly) inward with respect to each other and the direction of travel. Cross your eyes with your eyes pointing inward and you get the picture.
Now camber is the real rub (pun intended).
You have 2.1 degrees of negative camber (top of the wheel is rocked inward towards the chassis) at Standard ride height (which is the proper air suspension setting for the alignment spec.s from Tesla). That negative value will increase as the car goes to Low on the highway. Yes, you are at the limit in the wrong or bad for the tires direction. No, you can not adjust it. This is the issue. Tesla built MS with FIXED camber in the rear. The camber is determined by the length of the upper control link and the lower a-arm. Both have fixed, non adjustable mounting points. Unlike the toe link which has an eccentric adjuster on the inboard end, you simply can not adjust the upper link or lower a-arm to change camber (apart from what Tesla calls "bolt slop" which is loosening the bolts, biasing each joint then tightening the attachment bolts again). This lack of adjustment for camber is what drove me to fabricate replacement upper arms that were slightly longer (which stands the wheel more upright).
And yes, I too think -2.1 degrees of camber is over kill but remember that Tesla HAD to do this to pass stability control regulations.
After my car's visit to the service center, I was informed that my alignment was within newer specifications - although they had slightly changed since my car was manufactured. They put two new tires on the rear and we will see whether we continue to see shoulder problems.
In late October, I'll be taking these wheels off and instead going to the 19" Hankooks on the Rial wheels, we'll see what kind of inside wear we see then.
In late October, I'll be taking these wheels off and instead going to the 19" Hankooks on the Rial wheels, we'll see what kind of inside wear we see then.
