1st drive of 2017 MBZ E-class: lane keeping is STILL inferior Tesla's

[Spidy]

I really don't understand how everyone is so certain the Mercedes E-Class would not have had a chance here. It has the better hardware, especially with the stereo-cameras and Cross-Traffic-Assist seems to be exactly the feature for this case. Not to mention Active-Brake-Assist seems to do much better with stationary objects.

Yes, I realize that's all in a test environment, but the S-Class didn't even get it done there.
And of course the sun could have cause the same issues for the car, that's simply something we don't know.

 

[Magus]

High speed accident, 18 wheeler turning, car drove through undercarriage. Yup, doubt it.

 

[LargeHamCollider]

I don't know the exact conditions of the accident in question but I get the impression here that people think direct sunlight will not affect radar performance, it absolutely will, some radars more than others.

 

[xav-]

Of course MB system would have saved the driver! Think any driver would ever feel confident enough about the system to stop paying attention to the road? That's a problem MB doesn't have to worry about.

 

[KZKZ]

And yet Mercedes plasters the same disclaimers all over their manuals that Tesla does. Curious.

Curious? Not really when you consider Telsa's approach to semi-autonomous driving vs. Mercedes and Volvo and the rest.

Mercedes backs up their disclaimers that the driver is always in control with software. Mercedes software actually forces the driver to be engaged. Mercedes backs up their words with software that requires the driver to engage the car every 60 seconds.

Tesla on the other hand does not back up their "requirement" to "always" have your hands on the wheel. This board is full of examples of Tesla software not matching their legal disclaimers. A person sleeping behind the wheel, no driver in the front seats, Teslas traveling for significant durations without any software nanny warnings.

If Tesla truly thought it was so important to "always" have a hand on the wheel as they claim, wouldn't their software back up their own "requirement"?

 

[mikeash]

Apparently the Mercedes system can be fooled into thinking you're present by just taping something heavy to the wheel. If they really thought it was that important, wouldn't they do something more reliable?

Both systems just have legal CYA maneuvers for "hands on the wheel." Tesla's happens to be less strict, but neither one is particularly safety related.

 

[KZKZ]

Yes I think your statements are inaccurate. I'm trying to find the Tesla radar range, but it is quite long. Truly the stopping tech is not great yet no matter how many radar units. Remember, Google cars have gone many fewer miles but not even LIDAR prevented all accidents and one in particular caused by google's car. Remember, this is LIDAR which is far superior to anything anyone can get publicly.

The E-Class uses a fusion of several multi mode radars that have multiple overlapping views of the road. They provide a longer range view as well as a wider view of the road close in.

Combined with stereo cameras, the E-Class is capable of picking out stationary and slow moving objects including those that are crossing perpendicularly across it's path.

In this example of being able to stop for stationary objects, the E-Class can properly pick out which lane the stationary obstruction is and stop well before impacting that stationary object.

 

[calisnow]

TMC member "KZKZ" joined us less than two weeks ago and has only 61 posts - a huge portion of which are devoted to criticizing Tesla's autopilot system and making other subtle and not-so-subtle negative comments about Tesla - even questioning its business model. This member also mysteriously will not allow other members to view their profile. It's kind of weird - KZKZ doesn't speak in a normal conversational toner, never says anything funny, smiles, reacts in a normal conversational voice - it's just a continuous stream of saying negative things about Tesla.

I'm no fan boy - I've criticized Tesla myself - but usually real people are balanced in what they right - there's a mix of comments. With KZKZ something sounds "off." The person claims to have a Model 3 reservation, but I smell something. Not sure what it is. Short? short short short. . .

 

[LargeHamCollider]

Yah his behavior is definitely that of someone with a financial interest in Tesla failing, I was guessing he works for a competitor though.

 

[KZKZ]

TMC member "KZKZ" joined us less than two weeks ago and has only 61 posts - KZKZ doesn't speak in a normal conversational toner, never says anything funny, smiles, reacts in a normal conversational voice - .View attachment 183562

Lol, you guys are too funny !!! Is that better?

The emoticons are pretty limited here.

I guess I just need to dumb down my posts. I will try to improve!!!! Thank you for the feedback!

 

[MarkS22]

Lol, you guys are too funny !!! Is that better?
The emoticons are pretty limited here.
I guess I just need to dumb down my posts. I will try to improve!!!! Thank you for the feedback!

Cool. Let's improve. What model Tesla are you interested in? The S, X, or 3? You have 64 messages in a couple weeks on the Tesla Motors Club. Despite knowing an incredible amount about the E-Class, you obviously have a serious interest in Tesla. What do you love so much about the Tesla brand compared to Mercedes?

 

[SR22pilot]

I noticed a pattern when the suspension failure was the hot topic. There were several posters who showed up and heavily criticized Tesla. No matter how good the opposing argument they never changed. Furthermore, when it was shown that other vehicles had similar issues and were worse they failed to acknowledge it. Their only interest was and is in slamming Tesla. The next thing I noticed was the join date and then the pattern of posts. Most people who join TMC start with some basic questions and participate in several threads as they come up to speed on the car. They often discuss things like their first test drive or ask where they can get a ride. This new group, however, had recent join dates and only went to a couple of threads where they slammed Tesla. People like KZKZ seem to exist solely to criticize Tesla. They will often get sanctimonious about how they are out to protect people and yet they don't comment on cars that are worse.

Consider my last statement and this thread. It is one thing to compare Tesla to Mercedes in different safety areas. It is something else to imply that if Tesla is behind Mercedes in an area then Tesla is dangerous and ... well you get the idea. The fact is that there are many AEB systems out there and the systems are improving. Even the poorer systems aid the driver. This is the "Merchants of Doubt" scenario all over again.

I strongly suspect the shorts are smelling blood again and want to push this. What is frustrating to me is that I expect their have already been several "self driving" fatalities but they were probably in Mercedes or Hyundai so they went unnoticed.

IT's getting frustrating. An American company builds a unique product and is very successful. They hire American workers and expand in the US. The company's reward is that they can't sell in some states and people try to destroy them for their own personal gain. Jay Leno says we have become a nation that prefers failures over successes. Sadly I think he is correct.

Ok, end of rant. I love a great debate which involves intellectual discussion. People out to hurt others for personal gain infuriate me.

 

[Magus]

SR22,

Posted elsewhere but the shorts number in the billions in terms of dollars. There is a recent article about the shorts and how much of Tesla's valuation is short money. You can bet money when Tesla comes up there is a potentially very strong and negative reaction that is entirely financially motivated.

Money is a powerful motivator even when people claim it is not. For example why would pharmaceutical companies pay money to market to physicians if it didn't pay off? Lots of studies on that. Biggest example is in politics.

Our friends at GM early in its history bought out public transit to make cars successful and lead to suburbs and basically a lifestyle revolving around cars.

 

[calisnow]

IT's getting frustrating. An American company builds a unique product and is very successful. They hire American workers and expand in the US. The company's reward is that they can't sell in some states and people try to destroy them for their own personal gain. Jay Leno says we have become a nation that prefers failures over successes. Sadly I think he is correct.

I agree with you. The amount of negative press on Tesla is something to behold - I don't blame Elon for saying there is a conspiracy theory. It really does seem like many journalists and plain ordinary Americans do not want to see someone succeed in such a big way. If ever it were possible to feel sorry for a billionaire then Elon Musk is the one I feel sorry for.

I wouldn't blame him if one day he threw up his hands, shouted "Pearls before swine! F*ck all you ungrateful fools and haters" sold his stock and retired to an island somewhere.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I agree with you. The amount of negative press on Tesla is something to behold - I don't blame Elon for saying there is a conspiracy theory. It really does seem like many journalists and plain ordinary Americans do not want to see someone succeed in such a big way. If ever it were possible to feel sorry for a billionaire then Elon Musk is the one I feel sorry for.

I wouldn't blame him if one day he threw up his hands, shouted "Pearls before swine! F*ck all you ungrateful fools and haters" sold his stock and retired to an island somewhere.

That's because Elon violates a fundamental stereotype we have constructed in this world:

"Rich people are evil and only care to make themselves richer. Therefore everything they do must be for their own gain and must be viewed as such. Altruism/concern from a rich person is just another way of expressing their selfishness and serves to boost their own ego. Only the poor can be good."

 

[KZKZ]

Cool. Let's improve. What model Tesla are you interested in? The S, X, or 3? You have 64 messages in a couple weeks on the Tesla Motors Club. Despite knowing an incredible amount about the E-Class, you obviously have a serious interest in Tesla. What do you love so much about the Tesla brand compared to Mercedes?

The Model 3, but only with AP 2.0 and only if it can detect stationary objects. What I like most about the Model 3 is it will be in my price range. I would love the E-Class but it starts costs $51K.

What I know about the Mercedes Drive Pilot is because there is so much detailed information about it released by Mercedes, with very detailed descriptions about the hardware including charts of the distance and angles of view that the car see, lots of videos in various situations.

I have no idea what AP2.0 will offer but I know enough about AP1.0 to feel that the hardware is way too limited for how people are using the car.

 

[KZKZ]

Not just stationary cars though.

1h16m30s

Thank you Spidy for posting the video, its very long and I don't speak German so I scanned through most of it.

I like the crossing traffic test at 1:11:00

Can you tell what speed they're traveling during the test at 1:13:00?

At 1:14:30, what are they demonstrating? The vehicle detects the crossing traffic and determines it won't be a factor or what?

Also, would you mind translating what they're saying during the test at 1:16:30?

Danke!

 

[xG35]

mercedes and tesla are taking very different approach to the same problem.. same with gm, volvo and etc.

Tesla is designing a driver assist that incrementally becomes better and mimicks semi autonomous driving in certain situations.

All other manufacturers are going for the home run which is autonomous driving or none at all.

at the heart of the argument is software vs hardware. You can argue more hardware is always better that is you assume that your software can leverage all the inputs efficiency. The more source of data the more translation and analysis required. Most traditional companies will prefer to add more hardware because you can market it and it provides the illusion of value to end customer. Ask yourself this question, how can google advertise that their search engine is better than bling? you can't and no one will get it if you try.

at the heart of tesla is not the camera and sensor.. is the data it collects from everyone. by going after big data you are after predictive and learning ai vs a rule based system. And that is why autopilot in real world still performs so much better than all other manufacturers. This is a silicon Valley vs engineer approach.

 

[SR22pilot]

mercedes and tesla are taking very different approach to the same problem.. same with gm, volvo and etc.

Tesla is designing a driver assist that incrementally becomes better and mimicks semi autonomous driving in certain situations.

All other manufacturers are going for the home run which is autonomous driving or none at all.

at the heart of the argument is software vs hardware. You can argue more hardware is always better that is you assume that your software can leverage all the inputs efficiency. The more source of data the more translation and analysis required. Most traditional companies will prefer to add more hardware because you can market it and it provides the illusion of value to end customer. Ask yourself this question, how can google advertise that their search engine is better than bling? you can't and no one will get it if you try.

at the heart of tesla is not the camera and sensor in everyday.. is the data it collects from everyone. by going after big data you are after predictive and learning ai vs a rule based system. And that is why autopilot in real world still performs so much better than all other manufacturers. This is a silicon Valley vs engineer approach.

I agree on the software and big data part. I disagree about MB et. al. going for the home run. On paper the latest MB system does everything Tesla's AP does except lane change. Actually it does more "on paper." It just doesn't stay in the lane as well. I think blind spot detection may be better than Tesla and I suspect auto braking is equal.

 

[ebwb]

For the record, I own TSLA stock and appreciate KZKZ's contributions to this forum. It is troubling how the standard response to criticism in these circles is suspicion, defamation of character, etc. Here's my two cents.

To me, it's obvious that the optional system on the new E-Class has more safety capabilities than current Autopilot (I'm sure future iterations of Autopilot will have more hardware and capabilities):

- E-Class can detect lateral, cross path traffic
- E-Class can can detect stationary vehicles from a distance
- E-Class can detect pedestrians

That said, Autopilot is tuned to mimic autonomous driving, as xG35 said, with much better lane-centering abilities than DRIVE PILOT. This creates a sense of user confidence, right up until the moment there's a situation that Autopilot was not designed to address. Tesla can do a better job educating Autopilot users with what the system can and cannot do.

It's really a difference in approach. Tesla's system builds confidence with impeccable lane centering behavior, allowing users to not touch the steering wheel for miles and miles. DRIVE PILOT (no idea why Mercedes capitalizes non-acronyms...) still requires constant human input and nags the driver to hold the steering wheel, which is the more conservative and, in my opinion, the more appropriate approach given current limitations. It certainly doesn't have the same cool factor though, which is what makes Tesla so unique and talked about.