1st drive of 2017 MBZ E-class: lane keeping is STILL inferior Tesla's

[chillaban]

That is not correct, a Automatic Emergency Braking is not "an assist system designed to grab your attention". An Automatic Emergency Barking system is a system designed to automatically bake the vehicle in an emergency.

Collision Warning Systems are "an assist system designed to grab your attention".

One comes before the other. If the AEB is already engaging because the driver is distracted, there isn't adequate time to "grab the attention" of the driver and have that driver assess the situation and figure out what to do.

AEB systems are absolutely supposed to grab your attention in addition to buying you reaction time and also reducing the severity or preventing a collision. Even the Mercedes one, though it's capable of bringing the car down to a much lower speed, only is meant to kick in when a collision is inevitable. And It will not kick in for every kind of collision, especially those involving much slower cars suddenly cutting into your lane.

Out of curiosity, how many cars have you owned with radar/LIDAR guided automated emergency braking?

 

[KZKZ]

Not to be argumentative, but AEB systems are involved after the Collision Warning System has already activated.

The CWS is the system that is supposed to "grab your attention" as you say. If you ignore the warning, then the AEB activates.

For reference, here how the US Gov't defines the two systems:

2.1.2 Collision Warning Systems

A CWS assists a driver in preventing or mitigating a rear-end collision by presenting auditory, visual, and/or haptic warnings (i.e "grab your attention").

2.1.4 Autonomous Emergency Braking

AEB refers to a component of forward CAS that autonomously applies brakes in order to prevent or mitigate a collision. AEB is typically activated after a warning system alerts a driver about a potential rear-end collision and the driver fails to respond. The AEB may apply either partial or full braking force, or cascaded braking, which is the application of partial braking followed by full braking force.

http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SIR1501.pdf

 

[Zybd1201]

The 2017 E-Class is the first and only car to be licensed as a fully autonomous car in the State of Nevada.

First of all this is a 100% demonstrably false statement. Nevada has been a testing ground for tons of autonomous vehicles including freightliner semi trucks. The only 'first' is that the mercedes is identical to the 'current production model' in hardware design.

Second, it is not permitted for autonomous driving. It is actually only permitted to test exactly what everyone's tesla is already doing.

"Self-driving tests are permitted on all interstates and state highways in Nevada, human drivers being required only for turning, merging and departing. The autonomous test drives in everyday traffic will be carried out by specially trained test drivers. Nevada Department of Motor Vehicles (NDMV) rules also stipulate that there must be one passenger behind the wheel and a second passenger in the vehicle on test drives."

 

[chillaban]

Not to be argumentative, but AEB systems are involved after the Collision Warning System has already activated.

The CWS is the system that is supposed to "grab your attention" as you say. If you ignore the warning, then the AEB activates.

For reference, here how the US Gov't defines the two systems:

2.1.2 Collision Warning Systems

A CWS assists a driver in preventing or mitigating a rear-end collision by presenting auditory, visual, and/or haptic warnings (i.e "grab your attention").

2.1.4 Autonomous Emergency Braking

AEB refers to a component of forward CAS that autonomously applies brakes in order to prevent or mitigate a collision. AEB is typically activated after a warning system alerts a driver about a potential rear-end collision and the driver fails to respond. The AEB may apply either partial or full braking force, or cascaded braking, which is the application of partial braking followed by full braking force.

http://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SIR1501.pdf

I'm not trying to be argumentative either, but after owning two cars with cascading AEB systems and being the kind of person who loves driving very aggressively in city traffic, I've been through dozens of CAS activations and a few AEB activations.


The definition by the US Govt only describes one sequence of events for the system. I've had two occasions where AEB activated at the same time as the auditory warning: One was a 1-second brake jolt when the car in front of me slowed down unexpected as I was making a lane change. The other was a totally unwanted full deceleration without warning while making a left turn. In both of these cases, the car didn't provide any early warning, so it's definitely not 100% true that AEB systems are involved after CWS. The initial intervention of the car can start at any stage and doesn't even always correspond to how the manual describes the system.

 

[KZKZ]

I'm comfortable with the Government's definitions of CWS and AEB system.

CWS is intended to be the "assist system designed to grab your attention"

AEB is a system designed to stop or slow the car to avoid or mitigate an accident.

That's not to say AEB won't grab your attention, I certainly hope it would.

 

[chillaban]

I'm comfortable with the Government's definitions of CWS and AEB system.

CWS is intended to be the "assist system designed to grab your attention"

AEB is a system designed to stop or slow the car to avoid or mitigate an accident.

That's not to say AEB won't grab your attention, I certainly hope it would.

Sure, agreed. The only thing I'd point out from personal experience is that right now, if you find yourself in a situation where AEB activated, whether it's on a Tesla or a car with more sophisticated AEB systems (like any recent Mercedes or a Pre-Sense equipped Audi), you should absolutely take action yourself, even if it's just holding down the brake pedal. Don't just cross your arms and look idly upon the impending doom and assume the car's intention is to automatically brake to a full stop

So from a practical basis, auto-braking for 25mph is probably as good as auto-braking indefinitely. During the time it takes for your car to slow down 25mph, it should've bought enough reaction time for you to press the brake (and then emergency brake assist should take over and hold the brake pedal down with full force).

The only exception is, of course, if the driver is incapacitated and unable to brake…. Then, of course, a system without the 25mph limitation is a clear winner

 

[KZKZ]

Yes, the 2017 E-Class is the first production vehicle certified by Nevada to be an autonomous vehicle. It's using the same hardware as the production E-Class with tweaks to the software. The key point being the hardware is in place.


First standard production cars given green light for autonomous driving in Nevada

The Tesla hardware is just too limited for full autonomous driving. Even Tesla doesn't claim that it is and will also admit to the limitations of the current hardware in AP1.0.

I think the hardware in the 2017 E-Class provides clues to what will hopefully come with AP2.0.

 

[MarkS22]

I agree I don't ever see any established company like Mercedes or Volvo releasing Beta software on consumers. At least not when safety systems are involved.

Clearly, you've never used mBrace. And I do consider remote start (with internal combustion and carbon monoxide), roadside assistance, collision notification, and SOS/Emergency to be important for consumer safety. Consumer autonomy will require a robust infrastructure with OTA updates and real-time data. I'm not impressed by company-only tech demos.

Source: My other 2016 car has mBrace and it can't even reliably remote start the vehicle in under a minute.

 

[KZKZ]

Clearly, you've never used mBrace. And I do consider remote start (with internal combustion and carbon monoxide), roadside assistance, collision notification, and SOS/Emergency to be important for consumer safety. Consumer autonomy will require a robust infrastructure with OTA updates and real-time data. I'm not impressed by company-only tech demos.

Source: My other 2016 car has mBrace and it can't even reliably remote start the vehicle in under a minute.

I wouldn't consider the remote starting of a vehicle a safety item. Putting Beta semi-autonomous driving software on the road is a different matter entirely.

I think the conservative approach used by everyone except Tesla when it comes to keeping your hands on the wheel and engaged with your surroundings is the proper approach.

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

This result surprised me. Quoted text is below. Link is below that. The new E-class hitting showrooms shortly has been trumpeted as having the most advanced technology. It has five cameras, five radars and 12 ultrasonic sensors - vs Tesla's current 1 camera, and one radar and 12 ultrasonic sensors. Despite this hardware superiority, Nick Jaynes writes yesterday in Mashable that Tesla's lane keeping is still more accurate and reliable than Mercedes. Those of you who recall the Car and Driver comparison test in February will remember that Tesla's first 7.0 Autopilot build had an error rate over 50% less than Mercedes' 2016 technology. Now we are discussing Mercedes' next-generation, much ballyooed semi-autonomous system about to hit the streets:

"With one eye on the road and another on a tiny green steering wheel icon emblazoned on the display in front of me, I watched as the all-new 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class drifted across the yellow lane marker. Just as the lefthand tires crested the line, the car proceeded to buzz the steering wheel to warn me, the driver, of an unsignaled lane departure.
"Oh, don't give me that," I hollered at the car, as I grabbed the wheel and jerked the mid-size luxury sedan back into the lane. "You're the one doing the steering!"
Now back in my lane with the Mercedes mostly keeping itself in check, my heart sank a bit.
I felt disheartened because Mercedes' new suite of semi-autonomous safety tech, Drive Pilot, simply didn't feel as robust as Tesla's Autopilot that I had tested on the very same stretch of freeways some eight months before.
During my test, the Model S was able not only able to stay planted within its lane, it also stayed almost perfectly centered in that lane. Comparatively, the E-Class struggled to even keep itself in a single lane — forget hopes of holding dead center."

"
On a straight, well-marked freeway, following traffic ahead, the system worked great. However, as soon as lane markings on either side became too hard to read or simply dropped away, Steering Pilot would cut out — sans warning.

Really, the only indication the car wasn't steering anymore was that the little steering wheel icon on the instrument display would go from green back to grey. If I didn't notice this because I was paying attention to the road ahead, like I am supposed to, I could suddenly and rapidly find the car drifting out of its lane. This happened to me several times over the two days I tested it."

Mercedes-Benz's 2017 E-Class won't let you nap behind the wheel

Thanks for sharing this, I'm getting tired of those who keep saying "well other cars have autopilot too" .... it just isn't the same. Even Mercedes. And I'd wager it will be a while before they close the gap... Tesla's fleet learning is propelling it forward. I truly hope the recent autopilot death does not set the company back with false fears from the public or the NHTSA ... on the other hand it is scary that someone passed away while using autopilot, but reading the company blog it makes sense... a semi trailer pulled out perpendicular. My condolences and here's to a safer future...

 

[KZKZ]

The tragic Auto Pilot accident only reinforces Mercedes and Volvos approach to semi-autonomous driving.

Tesla released a beta version that can't reliably discern a stationary object due to a lack of appropriate hardware then Tesla allows that beta version system to operate without any human engagement for a very, very long time.

Tesla tries to cover themselves with a legal-ese in the owners manual. But then there is the wink and nod from the company, yea, go ahead and go hands free. If Tesla truly thought their system required hands on the wheel, they would have dramatically decreased the duration before a nanny warning shows up.

 

[Magus]

There is no way any current auto tech would have prevented this tragic accident.

 

[chillaban]

There is no way any current auto tech would have prevented this tragic accident.

Agreed, and hands on the steering wheel has nothing to do with this accident. Tesla's Autopilot does prompt you very frequently to put your hands on the wheel if it's taking a turn that the car isn't confident about.

In this case it's more a matter of eyes on the road and feet on the brake than hands on the wheel.

 

[MarkS22]

The tragic Auto Pilot accident only reinforces Mercedes and Volvos approach to semi-autonomous driving.

We do not know the cause of this accident yet. To make this assumption, without knowing any details about the reasons for the accident, is disingenuous at best. A life has been lost and you came here to post an "I told you so?"

 

[KZKZ]

There is no way any current auto tech would have prevented this tragic accident.

Actually there is technology on the road that Tesla could adopt which would have prevented or minimized the accident.

For one, Tesla would adopt a system like Mercedes that requires your engagement with the vehicle every minute or less.

Secondly, the radar system in the E-Class can see 300 feet further down the road than Telsa's limited system.

Thirdly, stereo cameras and multi-mode radars can detect stationary objects in your path. In this case the object wasn't even stationary, it was moving slowly.

Fourth, a proper Collision Warning System would have alerted the driver to the danger.

Fifth, an advanced AEB system like the Mercedes E-Class works at speeds up to 155mph (yes autobahn speeds) would engage to minimize or avoid the accident. The AEB is the Tesla is very limited in its speed range as well as the amount of speed it will reduce.

Hopefully Tesla will now be encouraged to hurry along with the hardware and software upgrades necessary to make a safer vehicle.

 

[Magus]

Ridiculous. No way any auto tech right now or even if this accident was even preventable. If truck driver is at fault, what if a future self driving computer made the wrong choice to change direction and inadvertently head into oncoming traffic? There is no way Mercedes or Volvo tech would have prevented this. It comes off as really terrible chain of events. Even one of the Google cars had an accident with the multi tens of thousand dollars LIDAR tech.

 

[KZKZ]

Ridiculous. No way any auto tech right now or even if this accident was even preventable. If truck driver is at fault, what if a future self driving computer made the wrong choice to change direction and inadvertently head into oncoming traffic? There is no way Mercedes or Volvo tech would have prevented this. It comes off as really terrible chain of events. Even one of the Google cars had an accident with the multi tens of thousand dollars LIDAR tech.

Ridiculous? Really?

The E-Class can see 750' down the road and it can detect slow moving/stationary objects in its path. The Tesla can not see nearly that far, and the Tesla cant detect the stationary vehicle anyway because it apparently thinks its an overpass.

Many cars can stop from 60mph in less 120'.

I don't have any doubt the technology exists today that would allow a vehicle to brake and either greatly minimize or avoid the collision.

 

[Magus]

Yes I think your statements are inaccurate. I'm trying to find the Tesla radar range, but it is quite long. Truly the stopping tech is not great yet no matter how many radar units. Remember, Google cars have gone many fewer miles but not even LIDAR prevented all accidents and one in particular caused by google's car. Remember, this is LIDAR which is far superior to anything anyone can get publicly.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Ridiculous? Really?

The E-Class can see 750' down the road and it can detect slow moving/stationary objects in its path. The Tesla can not see nearly that far, and the Tesla cant detect the stationary vehicle anyway because it apparently thinks its an overpass.

Many cars can stop from 60mph in less 120'.

I don't have any doubt the technology exists today that would allow a vehicle to brake and either greatly minimize or avoid the collision.

And yet Mercedes plasters the same disclaimers all over their manuals that Tesla does. Curious.

 

[Magus]

@stoney Yes. As said before if Tesla's system was more sensitive to stopped vehicles the odds of other types of accidents would be relatively increased. How many times are you in a freeway turn and there are vehicles at the light waiting to turn left? I am glad that it is not too sensitive! If in actual driving Mercedes is that sensitive I would be scared to drive. There were several times in a shallow turn crossing a light on. A freeway with vehicles on the right hand or left hand turns that collision warning came on, but avoidance did not kick in. THANK GOODNESS because the car would needlessly brake potentially resulting in an accident. There is a reason these systems are not sensitive to parked objects.

So the truth is Tesla's system does recognize stopped objects - it doesn't react to all of them because that may result in a worse outline.