I don't think there is a perfect answer, but I think that situation is more expected. If just in production, they could decide to walk away from the $2500 deposit if its that important and re-order, but definitely still some people left out that just took delivery that day or day(s) before. But, I think people are more accustomed to understanding this upgrade cycle when you know about it in advance of it coming out and having to wait for it to ship, not just having it start shipping with cars 20 days before the official announcement. Tesla drew a line in the sand (Sept 19), while they were still trying to convince as many customers as possible to move up their delivery and/or buy a loaner, but didn't announce it until 20 days later after the quarter rush.
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I don't think there is a perfect answer, but I think that situation is more expected. If just in production, they could decide to walk away from the $2500 deposit if its that important and re-order, but definitely still some people left out that just took delivery that day or day(s) before. But, I think people are more accustomed to understanding this upgrade cycle when you know about it in advance of it coming out and having to wait for it to ship, not just having it start shipping with cars 20 days before the official announcement. Tesla drew a line in the sand (Sept 19), while they were still trying to convince as many customers as possible to move up their delivery and/or buy a loaner, but didn't announce it until 20 days later after the quarter rush.
cpa
Active Member
Tesla made conscious business decisions to "buck the trend" in selling cars. They do not have inventory. They do not have "franchised dealers." They do not have discrete model years. They have chosen to bootstrap growth via sales of high-end premium automobiles, using hoped-for increased sales to generate enough cash flow to expand. They market their cars through word-of-mouth, Supercharging, excellent customer service, and the media. Demand outstrips supply for the nonce.
I gather from many of the views expressed on this and other threads that many posters are directly or indirectly involved in the technology fields. You are experts in understanding how technology evolves, the speed in which it evolves, and the seemingly infinite variations that can result. Others may not be directly involved, but consider technology as an avocation, and follow advances and enhancements regularly.
It seems as if there is a minority (like me) who does not understand technology, does not know what is popular, better, trending, or obsolete. I dumped a 1995 Mustang GT Convertible with 135,000 miles on it to buy the S85. I have never driven a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or any other high-end automobile. I am accustomed to the anachronistic dealer franchise business model to purchase cars where upgrades are separated by model year and badge, and dealers carry inventory on their lots.
Tesla has chosen to do thing differently (and I believe, better.) However, that does not mean that they can change a century-old business model overnight without experiencing some customer satisfaction issues. The question that I ask, and that others seem to ask, is, "Did Tesla anticipate the potential backlash with what they did, and were they prepared for it?" My initial answer to this question is that it never even crossed their minds. If that is true, therein lies the disappointment and frustration.
As sales skyrocket with the release of the affordable Model III, more of the common and ignorant public will embrace Tesla. If continued upgrades and enhancements are unveiled in the same style as last week's D, customer satisfaction among the hoi polloi will plummet. And, I believe that Elon Musk's stated goal is to put affordable BEVs within the reach of everyone.
I was not affected with this announcement, and I wouldn't have cared had I been. But I do have some feeling for those on the cusp who liken their situation to the grifter's "bait and switch."
I gather from many of the views expressed on this and other threads that many posters are directly or indirectly involved in the technology fields. You are experts in understanding how technology evolves, the speed in which it evolves, and the seemingly infinite variations that can result. Others may not be directly involved, but consider technology as an avocation, and follow advances and enhancements regularly.
It seems as if there is a minority (like me) who does not understand technology, does not know what is popular, better, trending, or obsolete. I dumped a 1995 Mustang GT Convertible with 135,000 miles on it to buy the S85. I have never driven a Mercedes, BMW, Audi or any other high-end automobile. I am accustomed to the anachronistic dealer franchise business model to purchase cars where upgrades are separated by model year and badge, and dealers carry inventory on their lots.
Tesla has chosen to do thing differently (and I believe, better.) However, that does not mean that they can change a century-old business model overnight without experiencing some customer satisfaction issues. The question that I ask, and that others seem to ask, is, "Did Tesla anticipate the potential backlash with what they did, and were they prepared for it?" My initial answer to this question is that it never even crossed their minds. If that is true, therein lies the disappointment and frustration.
As sales skyrocket with the release of the affordable Model III, more of the common and ignorant public will embrace Tesla. If continued upgrades and enhancements are unveiled in the same style as last week's D, customer satisfaction among the hoi polloi will plummet. And, I believe that Elon Musk's stated goal is to put affordable BEVs within the reach of everyone.
I was not affected with this announcement, and I wouldn't have cared had I been. But I do have some feeling for those on the cusp who liken their situation to the grifter's "bait and switch."
green1
Active Member
This is the opposite of bait and switch. The "Bait" part is the promise, the "switch" part is when the promise is not the same as what is delivered. In this case the complaint is actually that these people "only" got what they were promised. That is not "Bait and switch" If anything the "victims" of bait and switch are those that got the free sensors, and somehow I haven't seen a single one of them complaining.
Krugerrand
Meow
I'm not sure where you didn't understand that to do what you suggested required they stop production of all customer cars.
If they thought it prudent to handle it like the 'D', do you not think that's what they'd have done?
Have you been on the factory tour? Are you privvy to information that no one else is, such that you'd know what was economically and efficiently production better for Tesla than Tesla themselves? Are you under the impression that Elon Musk is just making this up as he goes along?
No. More accurately a small select group of vocal people have an issue. The vast majority do not.
You're looking to the wrong person for a sympathetic ear. I, in no way, think like you do where cars are concerned. I'm not looking to buy a car to sell it a year or two or a few down the road. If I was of that mind, I'd lease. I inherently know that the very second I drive that new car off the lot, I just threw a whole stack of greenbacks out the window. And what happens to the market for that car after that, it often up for grabs. Therefore, to get the return on my very poor investment, I drive that sucker until the wheels fall off.
While I consider fairness to be a very important attribute, I understand that sometimes life just isn't fair and so I don't concern myself with what other people got that I didn't. It's petty and makes you ugly inside. I focus on being grateful for what I have. I'd be happy for you that you got some freebies, knowing that down the road I'll get my due. I don't mess with Karma.
There's no indication that quality of vehicle is suffering. What gets 'rushed' is deliveries, not production. That rushing may indeed have caused some customers to have a less than ideal experience when picking up the car either because of a tired or stressed DS. To date, I only recall seeing one post on that topic and it was perfectly within that person's capabilities to ask for additional assistance, which they did not do, before driving off in their car. I'm quite sure the DS would have accomodated them.
That happens with every high-tech item. There are always going to be people who bought at the wrong time. I'm sure they know about it, and there's little that can be done other than never change the product. There are only a few ways to be totally satisfied with any high-tech product:
1. Buy the best you can afford, and then never look at an ad, read a review, or go to a forum until the high-tech item no longer does what you want it to do. As an example, if you bought the original iPhone on day 1, EOL is when the iPhone 4 came out because the original iPhone won't run the newer programs fast enough. The iPhone 4 is EOL at iPhone 6 for the same reason.
2. Dispose of your current high-tech item when something new comes out. (This only works if you are very wealthy, so ti's not practical for many.)
3. Accept that if you can buy it, it's already obsolete, so there will always be something better/faster/cheaper in a couple of weeks, and don't stress over it.
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
Agreed there's no indication that quality of the vehicle suffered. There has been plenty of indication that customer service suffered. There were a fair amount of people that had issues with their DS during September. I remember the one you're referring to, but there were also people like me where the DS wouldn't return their messages. I suspect that this is what the person you're replying to is referring to, not vehicle quality. None of this is really related to the Autopilot roll out, but that's another case of less than stellar customer service. Even if you don't think the way they handled adding the sensors, the lack of knowledge about this by their staff was pretty poor. For example, there was one posted that told how when taking delivery of a vehicle with the new features and the delivery people not knowing really what they did and telling the customer to read the manual.
Once again, this has been done very poorly by Tesla. Every car delivered after the announcement should have the AP equipment. If you had ordered the car a year ago had to wait while some customers who ordered only had to wait for 2 months and Tesla skipped 8000 vins to boost quarterly results, you'd likely be upset if they improved equipment and you missed out. There are many people in this situation. How long should someone have to wait while others take delivery ahead of you?
Tesla could easily have said that on Jan 1 all new cars have the upgraded equipment, all customers have the option to convert their orders to the new specs. That simple act would have not upset anyone, would have been fair and would have been easily doable. It's time for the surly agressiveness to stop and some sensible understanding of another's position to take place.
Tesla could easily have said that on Jan 1 all new cars have the upgraded equipment, all customers have the option to convert their orders to the new specs. That simple act would have not upset anyone, would have been fair and would have been easily doable. It's time for the surly agressiveness to stop and some sensible understanding of another's position to take place.
Krugerrand
Meow
It is true that sometimes (perhaps often?), there are frontline employees that do not know everything that's going on at the factory or HQ, or what's coming down the pipeline. That can be a tough situation for those employees to handle, especially if they are young, new to Tesla, or just simply don't have a lot of life experience. There is a way to deal with that within the scope of the job and not stick your neck out, lie, or have customers cross with you. Maybe Tesla needs to send those employees to a few courses and seminars on how to deal effectively?
Customer: What are those dohickey things on the bumper?
DS: To be honest, I haven't got a clue. I am sure, though, that in the weeks going forward the answer will be revealed. Can I contact you when I find out?
Customer: Sure.
DS: And if you find out before me, will you call me? (LOL)
There are several very good reasons why those employees don't know everything, starting with the fact that Tesla is innovating and expanding at such a high velocity that it's next to impossible to keep everyone informed. Then there's been past information leaks that have caused turmoil, so that information stream has been essentially turned off and is on a need to know basis only - and they don't need to know in the opinion of those making that decision at the upper level. Perhaps that will change one day.
mitch672
Active Member
There is NO solution to this issue. If they pre-announce the availabiliy of new options, they end up "Osbourning" the company, even if they did annouce new options, there will always be people who's car went into production a day or two before the announcement. Believe me, I have experienced this personally. My Model S didn't have parking sensors, power folding mirrors, winter package, availble when I ordered... it also weighs several hundred pounds more than later production Model S's. My consolation is I have been driving the car for 22 months, with 21,000 miles put on it, and it was less expensive than the newer models. FYI, I did contact Tesla about a trade-in: $55K offered on my $90K price paid (subtract out the $7,500 federal tax credit received, I paid $82.5K)
Osborne Effect: Osborne effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Osborne Effect: Osborne effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
Totally agree with this. From the thread when the sensor first showed up, I can tell you people got a lot of wrong answers from Tesla employees. It would have been better for them to have just said "I don't know," to their customers and found out.
This I just can't agree with. When delivering a $100k car, there's really not a lot of excuse for an employee not knowing the product. I'm sure there will be little mistakes (the woman that did my demonstration told me I didn't get Slacker since I didn't order the upgraded sound system, clearly she was confusing Slacker and XM). If the person doing the delivery doesn't know there should be someone they can ask quickly that will know the answer to any question. Tesla shouldn't be putting their employees in a position of not being able to answer such questions. I hope they learn this and handle roll outs better.
Krugerrand
Meow
It's not a matter of agreeing or not. That's the way it is. It's a fact.
Get back to me when you run a company the size, scope and speed of Tesla, and then we can have an informative and accurate discussion about keeping employees abreast of information, as well as controlling how they disseminate that information. And quality of knowledge is not directly attached to the price of a product.
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
I didn't say it was easy. But in my opinion if you've put your employees in the position of delivering something that hasn't been announced, then you've failed at handling corporate communications. There's a huge art to making sure employees have the right information at the right time. I have great respect for the people that manage those things. But I'm not going to give Tesla a pass just because it's hard.
Customer expectations are certainly attached to the price of the product.
You don't get to tell me I can't have an opinion about something because I'm not running a company like Tesla. I can just as easily dismiss your opinion with such assumptions. Neither of us know each others backgrounds. I'd much rather discuss things on the merits than trying to dismiss each other based on such presumptions like this.
But Tesla is including the hardware in every single car built, right? So you would have Tesla give people three months notice so they could cancel their orders? That might leave Tesla with very few cars to build until Jan 1st while everyone waits for the new free sensors.
Ok. There is obviously no convincing you that Tesla can do any wrong, or have any room for improvement. They make all the right moves and only do it the best way possible. I get it
While Tesla is certainly a pretty awesome company that is making a ground breaking product, there is always room for improvement. I have nothing to prove to you, whether I know what I am talking about or not (you know, since I don't run a company of that size and level of innovation, so I will get back to you when that happens!), it's just my opinion.
You have no idea how I think about cars. I have no plans to sell my car in a year or two. Like you, I bought it to run it into the ground, which actually makes it financially reasonable to some degree compared to other cars I would have owned. But, its still a $70,000 - 120,000 car, when people on forums like this know more than the employees delivering the cars, thats a problem (in my opinion). How about innovating in that aspect of the business as well?
Krugerrand
Meow
What did they have to deliver that hadn't been announced? Some extra stuff showed up on a few cars that some staff didn't know about, but nobody was delivering it or expected to deliver it. Shrug shoulders, say you don't have a clue, carry on.
The CEO has decided things are going to be this way (at least for now). He told the world that very thing not too long ago. He has reasons for doing it. Feel free to disagree with him.
I said nothing of customer expectations being attached to the price of the product. I said, and I quote: "Quality of knowledge is not directly attached to the price of a product."
I didn't actually say you couldn't have an opinion. What I said was...oh, never mind.
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Ok. There is obviously no convincing you that Tesla can do any wrong, or have any room for improvement. They make all the right moves and only do it the best way possible. I get it
I believe nothing of the sort.
Three months notice is hardly the only solution Tesla could have offered, though. What irks, I think, a lot of people who look at this critically is the seeming inability of some to discuss any measures Tesla might have made differently. Like there isn't anything they could have done differently with breser, for example. (Of course perhaps Tesla will still do something to fix it for likes of breser, whose order was pushed forward by Tesla causing him to miss out.)
There are many alternatives between that and shutting down the factory for three months.
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Ain't that the truth.
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But the fact of the matter is, many other high-tech items do offer some solutions for this problem.
Here are some examples of what manufacturers of high-tech items have done:
- Offer retroactive discounts to those preceding the cut-off date who bought within some trimeframe.
- Returns policies.
- Pricing guarantees for changed prices.
- Delivery of upgraded product/feature for free to older deliveries made within some timeframe.
- Upgrade/swap offers.
There is a reason why this is done - customer satisfaction is important to companies. There is plenty Tesla could innovate in this area and judging by the backlash, perhaps they should have done something like that here. Say, discount non-AutoPilot cars, on request if you file a complaint, for some period to alleviate frustrations within people who are just taking delivery - or heck, give them a voucher for the Tesla accessory store for some amount, maybe offer them a free center console or something. That alone might feel like a great gesture when changes of this magnitude are introduced in the standard equipment and would offset a little of that depreciation the change caused.
This is just one idea. I'm sure the innovative people at Tesla could come up with even more impressive solutions were they to put their minds to it.
I'm not saying this needs to be done every time something changes. But adding self-driving car as standard is pretty big. Listening to disappointed customers and offering something back might be a wise thing in this case.
Disclaimer: I am not affected or concerned by this personally. I am waiting for the Model X and my lot P85 is just a stop-gap (well, I guess it may depreciate a little, but I'm not concerned about that personally). But I have bought a lot of factory cars previously with rolling changes made into them and I know a lot about customer experiences. This was a big change by any measure and probably deserves more attention than most changes.
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GravitySpec
Member
I'm right there with you. All I can do is save up my money and watch as the price drops and the amount of features continue to improve.
One day... one day...
breser
AutoPilot Nostradamus
Cars were being delivered to customers that had the sensors and active lane departure and speed assist features. Part of delivering a car is going over the features and how things work with a customer. Surely you understand what I meant.
It's news to me if Elon has said anything about this situation.
No but I did. I said that I expect for a $100k car that the employees be knowledgeable about it. I find it really hard to believe that most customers don't think that Tesla employees delivering the cars should know about the features they're delivering.
Not directly, but the implication was until I had the experience that you listed off (of which you have no idea if I have or not) that you didn't want to hear my opinion. You of course have a very easy solution to that problem. Don't read my posts. For whatever reason you've decided not to avail yourself of that solution. So telling me what you told me was essentially telling me to shut up.
I thought I was impacted most by having a car delivered 1 week before they start installing these sensors... but you guys' stories are making me feel better. Much better
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Oh well. Mine was delivered Sept 20th after a few delays. I see what they are doing...
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