[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[JHCCAZ]

...The whole jumping in the back seat explanation just hasn’t sat well (and why would he then buckle in in the few seconds he had before reaching the trees?)...

It seems like everyone is mentioning this, and I don't understand how we know that the Engineer friend wasn't the one driving, with the Doctor owner sitting in the back - possibly to take a video for his friend, or to better observe and coach him.

This version makes a lot more sense to me, especially the point that someone much less familiar with the car would be much more likely to be startled by the unexpectedly strong acceleration and lose control.

In this scenario, no one climbs over the seat, which is considered difficult though not impossible. The Engineer, after crashing the unfamiliar car, cannot get out on his side and moves to the passenger seat but cannot exit that side either. Soon, both succumb to the toxic battery-fire smoke and are left in the positions found by the firefighters.

 

[SMAlset]

It seems like everyone is mentioning this, and I don't understand how we know that the Engineer friend wasn't the one driving, with the Doctor owner sitting in the back - possibly to take a video for his friend, or to better observe and coach him.

This version makes a lot more sense to me, especially the point that someone much less familiar with the car would be much more likely to be startled by the unexpectedly strong acceleration and lose control.

In this scenario, no one climbs over the seat, which is considered difficult though not impossible. The Engineer, after crashing the unfamiliar car, cannot get out on his side and moves to the passenger seat but cannot exit that side either. Soon, both succumb to the toxic battery-fire smoke and are left in the positions found by the firefighters.

For people just coming to this thread, the police officially ID’d the people in the car. First was the rear seat individual, a 59 yr old Dr who was also identified as the car’s owner. Just recently they ID’d the engineer who was a financial planner, age 69, and front seat passenger.

We have a MS and have a similar center console to a 2019 one. I think it would hard to manipulate the car, crash and climb over the console. I’ll guess easier for a 59 yr old over a 69 yr old guy but still don’t see that happening. We can assume by the police saying they are sure no one was driving the car that the front passenger was belted in. After crashing you wouldn’t buckle in. At some point we will learn about the seat belts, airbags, seat sensors and things will be clearer. I just don’t see the passenger in the drivers’s seat crawling over the console after the accident.

 

[JHCCAZ]

We have a MS and have a similar center console to a 2019 one. Like someone said it would hard to manipulate the car, crash and climb over the console. I’ll guess easier for a 59 yr old over a 69 yr old guy but still don’t see that happening.

As an S owner yourself, which do you think is more difficult - climbing from driver to passenger front seat, or climbing from driver to back seat?

In any case, I would agree that the buckled vs. unbuckled state of each seat position is critical evidence to build the most likely chain of events.

 

[SMAlset]

As an S owner yourself, which do you think is more difficult - climbing from driver to passenger front seat, or climbing from driver to back seat?

In any case, I would agree that the buckled vs. unbuckled state of each seat position is critical evidence to build the most likely chain of events.

more difficult in either case if you are 69. Harder to manipulate your body if you are taller or heavier as well.

I once was blocked in on my driver’s side by a car in a parking lot. Was able to enter on the passenger side and it was not easy or quick to maneuver from the passenger side to the driver’s side. I was either in a Honda Accord or our Toyota Avalon. Both had center consoles with arm rests. The steering wheel also poses challenges maneuvering around. I assume with the car damaged the way it was, the power to interior lights went out so this would be climbing around in the dark with the car driven into into a forested area.

 

[Tam]

...I'm still not sure we know that Autopilot was in use...

Elon confirmed that no FSD was purchased for the car but he did not say that the car was not equipped with Autopilot.

Whether the Autopilot Testers correctly and successfully turned on the Autopilot or not is another issue because Elon said it wasn't on while the relatives said they went for an Autopilot test drive.

 

[ev_go123]

more difficult in either case if you are 69. Harder to manipulate your body if you are taller or heavier as well.

I once was blocked in on my driver’s side by a car in a parking lot. Was able to enter on the passenger side and it was not easy or quick to maneuver from the passenger side to the driver’s side. I was either in a Honda Accord or our Toyota Avalon. Both had center consoles with arm rests. The steering wheel also poses challenges maneuvering around. I assume with the car damaged the way it was, the power to interior lights went out so this would be climbing around in the dark with the car driven into into a forested area.

Something I hadn't fully considered, in either scenario, someone had to climb over some seats, either pre or post crash. For AP to cause the crash, the owner had to climb into the back pre crash. If a driver caused the crash, someone had to climb into the passenger or backseat post crash. Am I correct here?

Obviously if there was a third person in the car, there wouldn't be any seat climbing required, but this theory seems highly unlikely. I can't imagine the driver would be well enough to get walk out of a car crash that leaves two other occupants fully incapacitated.

 

[Tam]

...Obviously if there was a third person in the car, there wouldn't be any seat climbing required, but this theory seems highly unlikely. I can't imagine the driver would be well enough to get walk out of a car crash that leaves two other occupants fully incapacitated....

The car log would show how many seats were occupied for the trip thanks to the weight sensors. It can also confirm whether the system needed to deploy the driver's airbag or not depending on the driver's seat weight sensor. All airbags were burned but forensically, the burned steering wheel can still be examined to verify whether the airbag was deployed or not. The log and steering wheel evidence would verify the theory of the missing third person/driver or not.

NTSB is controlling the investigation now so the police and medical examiner won't be free to tell us anymore unless with NTSB's consent because they are parties to the investigation.

However, Tesla is excluded and not a party to the NTSB investigation so Tesla has the freedom to disclose the log to the public.

 

[gearchruncher]

so Tesla has the freedom to disclose the log to the public.

Do they? What does the privacy policy say? That they are allowed to disclose any data they collect on your car? I mean, can Elon just tweet the address of Gearcruncher's house because they pulled a data log and they have the right? The Driver Privacy Act says:

“any data in an event data recorder required to be installed in a passenger motor vehicle (as provided for under Department of Transportation [DOT] regulations concerning the collection, storage, and retrievability of on-board motor vehicle crash event data) is the property of the owner or lessee of the vehicle in which the recorder is installed, regardless of when the vehicle was manufactured.”

So it's far from clear that Tesla has the right to disclose them.

 

[SMAlset]

Something I hadn't fully considered, in either scenario, someone had to climb over some seats, either pre or post crash. For AP to cause the crash, the owner had to climb into the back pre crash. If a driver caused the crash, someone had to climb into the passenger or backseat post crash. Am I correct here?

Obviously if there was a third person in the car, there wouldn't be any seat climbing required, but this theory seems highly unlikely. I can't imagine the driver would be well enough to get walk out of a car crash that leaves two other occupants fully incapacitated.

There have been many accident cases where one person walks away from an accident while the others all perished so it happens. Wasn’t that “affluenza” kid one of those situations?— killed all his friends in his vehicle and he later tried escaping with mom to Mexico so he wouldn't be jailed.

Suppose it depends where on the car the worse part of the impact occurred. It wouldn’t be unheard of to get knocked out even temporarily from an impact and come to. As a teen I was in a car as a front seat passenger that was hit head on by a driver speeding at a high rate to try beating a light that had turned red for them. Forgot how fast police said they estimated they were still going at impact or how many feet of rubber the police said they laid down trying to brake but they totaled the car I was in. The car I was in was in the left turn lane and I think starting to turn. Thankfully seat belts were a thing back then and even so I hit the windshield but didn’t go through it. Briefly stunned or unconscious, bleeding forehead. Friend behind me also belted had her knees cut from going through the back of my seat. Passenger side was the worst, driver was pretty much okay. Not sure how that compares to hitting a tree head on.

 

[Tam]

...So it's far from clear that Tesla has the right to disclose them...

So how did Elon Musk was able to pinpoint which car belongs to the incident that has not purchased FSD and the Autopilot was not on?

Elon Musk owns his data that he has worked so hard to spend money and resources to collect and disclose as he sees fit!

 

[Gadget-X]

All these theory's are just speculation based on very sketchy facts (that is what we all do). I own the same vehicle and have FSD. The car is an absolute slingshot when in Ludicrous, Ludicrous + or Warp mode. You can hurt yourself in these modes. So my theory (yes everyone is allowed one) is this is a plain case of too much right pedal to an inexperienced driver caused vehicle to leave the road and crash. Yes it could also be a vehicle malfunction while under extreme acceleration. Accelerating that fast in that very small distance using cruise or FSD (even if possible) seems most unlikely. Matter made worst by not knowing how to egress from the vehicle and lots of adrenaline the driver made it to the back seat somehow before succumbing. Witnesses saying only 2 poor souls in vehicle when it left the driveway counts out a 3rd person driver escaping unless the vehicle was carjacked in the gated high end community. Again all speculation based on so little of verifiable facts.

 

[byeLT4]

I wonder if regen was on? It took me a few long rides to get used to it and I think is what causes the wrong pedal to be applied in some situations. In this case someone not familiar with the car floors it, approaches curve and lets pressure off accelerator but still on the it, feels regen braking, realizes still going to fast for the turn and feels his foot on the pedal and feels regen slowing the car and assumes his foot is on the brake, slams 'brake' pedal down but oh crap.... It's really the accelerator...

 

[qdeathstar]

I wonder if regen was on? It took me a few long rides to get used to it and I think is what causes the wrong pedal to be applied in some situations. In this case someone not familiar with the car floors it, approaches curve and lets pressure off accelerator but still on the it, feels regen braking, realizes still going to fast for the turn and feels his foot on the pedal and feels regen slowing the car and assumes his foot is on the brake, slams 'brake' pedal down but oh crap.... It's really the accelerator...

Seems plausible

 

[DaveG_NJ]

I'm still going with a performance demo gone wrong, but the debates here and elsewhere got me thinking about another possible (however improbable scenario). Pure conjecture, of course, but here's the premise: the two men were debating whether a Tesla could drive without a person behind the wheel and they set up a test to settle the argument.

Dr. Varner (the owner) says, "It's not possible - too many safeguards." Mr. Talbot (reportedly an engineer), says, "The car can be fooled and I can prove it. Hop in the back, and I'll show you. We'll do it slow, right here where's there's no traffic. If I damage your car, I'll pay for it!" And he basically sets up the Consumer Reports scenario, absent the wheel weight, which would not be needed.

With Varner in the backseat, and Talbot sitting on a latched seatbelt, Talbot gets the speed up to 18mph to engage TACC, while negotiating the first curve, then quickly lowers speed to zero with the stalk, stopping the car. With the car stopped, Talbot climbs over into the passenger seat, reaches over to increase the speed setting, just enough to get the car moving to prove his point, but he overshoots on the control and the car lunges forward, out of control, jumps the curb, violently hits the tree and the bodies are exactly as reported, Talbot in front passenger and Varner in rear.

The prevailing police theory (implied) is that Varner set up the elaborate demo, which doesn't make sense. You can impress the hell out of people without leaving the driver's seat and just letting AP do it's thing. Even so, if this was a rigged experiment, it would make sense for the person conducting the experiment to be in the front, not the back, hence Talbot, who we may learn was also a Tesla owner.

 

[MikeyC]

It all makes sense. Except the part about "the car planted." I'm struggling to get my head around that one. You're saying the murderer intentionally drove the car into a tree? That's gutsy!

I agree. I posted that unlikely example as just another ridiculous possibility. To me, both the "driverless car" and "staged accident" are way down the list of likely causes. In both cases we have two hard-to-believe scenarios that require planning and setup. On one hand, we have a driver who accelerates in a short distance in a span of less than 10 seconds, sets (or tries to set) AP, gets out of the driver's seat, moves to the back, and belts himself. In my alternate silly scenario, we have someone who wants to get rid of two bodies drive them near the crash scene, either brake or accelerate just off the side of the road to create skid marks, drive up to a tree (slowly) and mash the accelerator against the tree to cause some front end damage, get out, and then set the car on fire.

My point being, if we are going to entertain highly unlikely scenarios, why not consider them all? It could even end up being something no one speculated if they are able to find the real truth.

Mike

 

[alexgr]

Dr. Varner (the owner) says, "It's not possible - too many safeguards." Mr. Talbot (reportedly an engineer), says, "The car can be fooled and I can prove it. Hop in the back, and I'll show you. We'll do it slow, right here where's there's no traffic. If I damage your car, I'll pay for it!" And he basically sets up the Consumer Reports scenario, absent the wheel weight, which would not be needed.

Talbot was an 69-year old investment advisor in a company of his name. I see no information about his engineering past.

 

[MikeyC]

I'm still going with a performance demo gone wrong, but the debates here and elsewhere got me thinking about another possible (however improbable scenario). Pure conjecture, of course, but here's the premise: the two men were debating whether a Tesla could drive without a person behind the wheel and they set up a test to settle the argument.

Dr. Varner (the owner) says, "It's not possible - too many safeguards." Mr. Talbot (reportedly an engineer), says, "The car can be fooled and I can prove it. Hop in the back, and I'll show you. We'll do it slow, right here where's there's no traffic. If I damage your car, I'll pay for it!" And he basically sets up the Consumer Reports scenario, absent the wheel weight, which would not be needed.

With Varner in the backseat, and Talbot sitting on a latched seatbelt, Talbot gets the speed up to 18mph to engage TACC, while negotiating the first curve, then quickly lowers speed to zero with the stalk, stopping the car. With the car stopped, Talbot climbs over into the passenger seat, reaches over to increase the speed setting, just enough to get the car moving to prove his point, but he overshoots on the control and the car lunges forward, out of control, jumps the curb, violently hits the tree and the bodies are exactly as reported, Talbot in front passenger and Varner in rear.

The prevailing police theory (implied) is that Varner set up the elaborate demo, which doesn't make sense. You can impress the hell out of people without leaving the driver's seat and just letting AP do it's thing. Even so, if this was a rigged experiment, it would make sense for the person conducting the experiment to be in the front, not the back, hence Talbot, who we may learn was also a Tesla owner.

As with many of the scenarios, I'd say it's possible but unlikely. The factors against this scenario include AP not being able to increase speed at the rate needed or being able to "lunge" forward, AP not being able to be set more than 5 MPH over the speed limit, and the wives saying that the owner was the driver when they left (doesn't mean they couldn't have switched down the road of course). Also, if he was trying to show that, IF the car managed to reach a dangerous speed, he most likely would have known that reaching over and jerking the steering wheel would take it out of AP. Not to mention just getting out of the seat and making it go 5 MPH would have been enough to prove his point.

Mike

 

[mongo]

Hypothetical:
Weight placed on seat to simulate driver.
...Some version of events to get car into drive...
Weight falls off seat onto the accelerator.
Crash, weight is dislodged/ lost/ burned.

Edit: or, if you learn from CR, weighted chain falls off steering wheel onto accelerator.

 

[ev_go123]

How hard would it be for the passenger to change the AP set speed in a model S? The control stalk is at around 8:00 behind the steering wheel. I would think reaching that would be difficult for a passenger.

In all the demonstrations of driverless autopilot I've seen, they use a model 3 or y where the set speed is just the dial on the steering wheel.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

which do you think is more difficult - climbing from driver to passenger front seat, or climbing from driver to back seat?

Neither is difficult when the car is on fire -- no matter how old you are.

I think people are forgetting that in the "can't escape" scenario that full adrenaline and fight-or-flight will be in force. If you're about to burn to death, I guarantee you'll find a way to crawl over that console.