[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[MikeyC]

If both occupants were belted, then I think the most likely explanation is that there was third person as speculated earlier (a driver) who got out. But I think most likely the claim about the person in the back being belted will later be found to be false. Maybe they found the buckle in the receiver but the belts themselves almost certainly burned up in the fire. Finding the buckle in the receiver doesn't mean the occupant was belted. I've seen people leave their back seats buckled all the time for a number of reasons: to keep the buckle from rattling against the side for example.

Mike

 

[MikeyC]

As long as we seem to be entertaining really "hackerman" and odd things being done WRT this crash:

Someone mentioned earlier that parts at the front of the car didn't seem jammed far back toward the cabin and wondered how a person in the front and one in the back could have both been killed or incapacitated from a collision that didn't crush the whole front end. If it turns out they were belted into the seats where they were found... what if they were already dead (or unconscious), the car planted, and intentionally set ablaze?

No. STOP IT. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But at this point, it seems almost as likely as two experienced professionals deciding to drop their wives off and go "ghost riding" in one of the fastest cars on the planet.

Mike

 

[gnuarm]

How were you able to shift from P to D without sitting in the driver seat?

This was while on the road and moving. I haven't tried shifting into drive. But I thought that was predicated on a foot on the brake pedal.

 

[gnuarm]

This was the post I was intending to reply to before. You indicated that your car has FSD.

FSD can engage in situations where a car with basic AP will not engage. Since the car in the article did not have FSD, I don't think these experiences can necessarily be applied to the situation in the article.

Basic AP only has Autosteer which only works within "a clearly marked lane". It doesn't even do lane changes.

Ok, then I will have to defer to you and Elon.

 

[eipi10]

As long as we seem to be entertaining really "hackerman" and odd things being done WRT this crash:

Someone mentioned earlier that parts at the front of the car didn't seem jammed far back toward the cabin and wondered how a person in the front and one in the back could have both been killed or incapacitated from a collision that didn't crush the whole front end. If it turns out they were belted into the seats where they were found... what if they were already dead (or unconscious), the car planted, and intentionally set ablaze?

No. STOP IT. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But at this point, it seems almost as likely as two experienced professionals deciding to drop their wives off and go "ghost riding" in one of the fastest cars on the planet.

Mike

It all makes sense. Except the part about "the car planted." I'm struggling to get my head around that one. You're saying the murderer intentionally drove the car into a tree? That's gutsy!

 

[MP3Mike]

The crash also occurred at 11:25 p.m. at night. Gosh, I wonder -- could alcohol have been involved?

No, it didn't. The fire department was on-scene by 9:30 PM.

 

[flar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1384254194975010826

He agreed that someone in the seat was needed, and that lane lines were needed, both of which have been proven false.

He said that the guy's research is better than WSJ. That's a low bar and does not indicate that everything in the quoted tweet is correct.

Has someone with basic AP confirmed whether lane lines are needed? So far we've had people say that they can engage without lane lines, but those people have FSD. Basic AP is a very limited subset of FSD (even without the beta software).

 

[flar]

Autopilot [...] doesn't activate in my cars without painted lines

To confirm, do you have the basic AP that was included with the car for free without the FSD option? If so, then this confirms Elon's statement that "standard Autopilot would require lane lines to turn on".

 

[qdeathstar]

this topic is having a negative impact on the button watch and I’m furious.

 

[Tam]

Why ? Is it common for people to fall off the seat after setting AP ?

No. However, there are a number of Youtubers who show that their Autopilot can continue to function without any driver in the driver's seat.

Since Tesla has already programmed that Autopilot will not work with the seatbelt unbuckled, it just needs to add one more factor about the weight and not just the seatbelt status only.

Not many Autopilot testers die but the most recent incident is all over the national news. Infrequent but that's bad enough!

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Is it common for people to fall off the seat after setting AP ?

I agree that incorporating that seat weight sensor is problematic and it seems unnecessary - people nearly always sit in the driver's seat when using Autopilot, and if they don't want to, you definitely won't be able to stop them by using the seat weight sensor!

Whether we think people should be doing it or not, the last thing you'd want is for AP to disengage, just as someone reaches into the back seat to grab something, and unweights the seat. Obviously Tesla could introduce a delay or chime rather than immediate disengagement, but you definitely wouldn't want to instantly disengage. Also pretty common and very easy to completely unweight the seat if you're stretching on a long road trip, too (I've done it on occasion, by bracing on the dead pedal).

There's also the issue of defective sensors...seems to happen, and I imagine they fail more readily than seat belt sensors, etc.

Not many Autopilot testers die but the most recent incident is all over the national news. Infrequent but that's bad enough!

I'm still not sure we know that Autopilot was in use before the car left the roadway. I guess I haven't been tracking the latest news on this apparently hot topic, so maybe I missed something? Anyway, I think we should wait to see if they can figure out what happened first. It doesn't seem to me that using the seat weight sensor would have stopped this crash if indeed it turns out there was no driver in the seat (it would have just been defeated).

I'm not against monitoring, etc. Just have to be careful how it's done. For example, for the camera driver monitoring, it's been pointed out that if the system detects driver inattention, you DON'T want it to disengage immediately (because that's when you need it most, even if the system is in general incapable of driving safely without monitoring!!!). So it's a tricky problem. I'm hopeful that Tesla will have some success with their attempts to use the not-intended-for-this-purpose cabin camera in the Model 3 and Model Y in the near future. Having a sophisticated system capable of detecting a variety of behaviors allows for a less binary approach to reacting to inattention.

 

[qdeathstar]

I don’t understand why people think it’s Tesla’s responsibility to make sure there is no way to defeat safety measures.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don’t understand why people think it’s Tesla’s responsibility to make sure there is no way to defeat safety measures.

Yeah, I don't really understand that.

Having good driver monitoring is a great safety addition though, potentially. You can potentially detect when someone is not looking the right direction, is incapacitated, falling asleep, distracted, etc. Definitely a lot that can be done with that. One of these days!

Don't think of it as something that is used to disable driver assistance systems - it can (eventually) work in concert with them to make them even safer.

So the people clamoring for comprehensive driver monitoring definitely are pushing for something that potentially improves safety - but it likely won't be much better at defeating people who want to defeat or work around the safety measures (they will not be stopped - where there is a will there is a way).

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I don’t understand why people think it’s Tesla’s responsibility to make sure there is no way to defeat safety measures.

On any kind of device that a user can endanger other people there should be some attempt at preventing misuse. I'm not saying the manufacture has to go out of their way putting multiple levels of redundant safety measures, but they should at least have a few checks.

The lack of using the seat sensor at all means Tesla isn't even bothering to use what's already there. There might be a logical explanation. I'd have to see how other L2 systems are implemented that use a torque sensor.

The irony of this accident is Tesla will likely have to do something, but then it will come out that AP had nothing to do with the accident.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

this topic is having a negative impact on the button watch and I’m furious.

I think this incident has vaporized the button entirely.

I simply can't see Tesla going through with it until more information is known about the cause of this fatality accident.

 

[qdeathstar]

On any kind of device that a user can endanger other people there should be some attempt at preventing misuse. I'm not saying the manufacture has to go out of their way putting multiple levels of redundant safety measures, but they should at least have a few checks.

The AP system has several checks. More than a few.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Yeah, I don't really understand that.

Having good driver monitoring is a great safety addition though, potentially. You can potentially detect when someone is not looking the right direction, is incapacitated, falling asleep, distracted, etc. Definitely a lot that can be done with that. One of these days!

Don't think of it as something that is used to disable driver assistance systems - it can (eventually) work in concert with them to make them even safer.

So the people clamoring for comprehensive driver monitoring definitely are pushing for something that potentially improves safety - but it likely won't be much better at defeating people who want to defeat or work around the safety measures (they will not be stopped - where there is a will there is a way).

But, defeating safety devices should be at least as difficult as setting the time on a VHS clock.

If a 70 year can defeat casually get around your safety check there is something wrong with your safety check.

Teenagers are crafty so lets not use them as the goal post. But, upper management people? Absolutely.

 

[FordMME]

There is absolutely no evidence there was a third occupant in the vehicle who was driving the car - and a lot of evidence against it. This is second shooter on the grassy knoll level stuff.

The driver seatbelt will tell the tale. If the men faked the autopilot, that would have required the driver seatbelt to be engaged. There will be evidence of that in the crash no matter the damage of the crash or the ensuing fire. If the driver seatbelt is still engaged, then we know there wasn’t anyone sitting there before the crash.

As for how the AP could have gotten the car going so fast over such a short distance, it would have been relatively easy for the occupant of the passenger seat to accidentally add too much throttle to the AP too quickly.

 

[byeLT4]

Did the car have the center console? Mine does and there is no way the passenger can get to the driver footwell unless they are super limber and wayyy out of normal sitting position.

I wonder if the B-I-L has had his test ride before? Strange that the women were dropped off and him? Ah, I do love a good conspiracy theory.......

 

[qdeathstar]

But, defeating safety devices should be at least as difficult as setting the time on a VHS clock.

If a 70 year can defeat casually get around your safety check there is something wrong with your safety check.

Teenagers are crafty so lets not use them as the goal post. But, upper management people? Absolutely.

There is a reason why VHS clocks don’t exist anymore. I’d rather autopilot doesn’t go the way of the VHS clock, dear.