Well the problem is that if the animal welfare proponents are correct, then it's a transcendent issue. So your above statement could have been - and I'm absolutely certain it would have been - used in times of slavery. Whether it makes sense to be directing these concerns toward Tesla especially, if that is in fact the case, or the manner in which it's best done, is of course worth discussing.
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Well the problem is that if the animal welfare proponents are correct, then it's a transcendent issue. So your above statement could have been - and I'm absolutely certain it would have been - used in times of slavery. Whether it makes sense to be directing these concerns toward Tesla especially, if that is in fact the case, or the manner in which it's best done, is of course worth discussing.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Have to say, I was a bit disappointed with Elon's answer about the education part. Given the brand cache that Tesla is building up, all it may take is one engineer (or even a knowledgeable service tech) spending one day - make it half a day - in a month visiting a local middle or high school and talking about Tesla and battery tech. Same with SpaceX engineers. That'd go a long way towards inspiring a whole new generation of students who may end up picking up a STEM discipline. And, I'm sure it'd be rewarding and motivating for the Tesla employees themselves to see all those impressionable faces.
Personally, I'd LOVE to see Tesla be a company that is progressive on all fronts, including animal-free vehicles. I think they stick with animal hides because people expect it in $100,000 cars. I am hoping that with more produciton volume comes more choice on this for customers. I actually love my textile seats but would never have chosen a black interior. Grey or brown or something would have been preferred to m
Not exactly what the man was talking about. I'm going to chalk it all up to Musk being seemingly half asleep!
Nubo
Test Mule
Agreed; they are not going to sacrifice customers who, for whatever reason, demand leather interiors.
What they CAN do is de-couple the material choice from other options, and offer a better variety of non-leather seating instead of having it be like the one sad vegetarian meal at a steakhouse.
What's the story with Elon wearing a wedding ring at the meeting? Wikipedia confirms that this was the first he has reportedly worn one since his last divorce at the end of 2014.
Owner
Active Member
I and a few other owners chatted with JB after the meeting.
He did say they have a lot of interns. And that interns have worked out really well for them. They both mutually interview each other really for several months. He really liked the intern program and said that it has worked better than straight out hires. And I did ask him if they pay them, and yes they do. (I just know several other industries where interns are not paid!)
So its not like they are working with young folks.
We just can't expect Tesla to do everything extensively. Lets keep them focused on "sustainable transportation"
He did say they have a lot of interns. And that interns have worked out really well for them. They both mutually interview each other really for several months. He really liked the intern program and said that it has worked better than straight out hires. And I did ask him if they pay them, and yes they do. (I just know several other industries where interns are not paid!)
So its not like they are working with young folks.
We just can't expect Tesla to do everything extensively. Lets keep them focused on "sustainable transportation"
At this price point, Tesla would lose many customers if they did not offer leather seats, it would be suicide for the company.
Sorry FANGO, but I think the Vegan guys were rude and self-agrandizing. It's like the three of them got together and decided to sabotage the meeting, taking up a full 10% of the precious time on their pet (pun intended) project. We are all adults and do not appreciate being lectured to. The only people that support this kind of behavior are ones that fully agree with them. For the rest of us that might be on the fence, this was a big turn off. They did not do any favors for their cause.
Sorry FANGO, but I think the Vegan guys were rude and self-agrandizing. It's like the three of them got together and decided to sabotage the meeting, taking up a full 10% of the precious time on their pet (pun intended) project. We are all adults and do not appreciate being lectured to. The only people that support this kind of behavior are ones that fully agree with them. For the rest of us that might be on the fence, this was a big turn off. They did not do any favors for their cause.
I think we would all agree that Tesla is now more well aware that lots of customers want vegan options.
On the animal cruelty issue. By all means reorganize the ordering software to allow better ala carte selections for Vegan cars. Do the cheap and easy stuff, even if it means a little less production streamlining.
I think the distaste for this issue doesn't stem from the fact that half of posters here love animal cruelty or love waste and CO2 from the cattle industry. I also think it isn't because we don't care, this crowd *disproportionately* cares. But targeting Tesla for not quite being perfect yet is annoying. If you look at the millions of cars rolling off the lines right now, lets say they ALL have leather. Each of those cars has a giant implied carbon footprint from all the fuel they will have to burn in their useful life, and a small amount from the leather. Even if you consider that the leather was farmed just for the car, and isn't a waste stream from the beef industry, the total carbon contribution from the leather is miniscule compared to the fuel.
Say a car will be on the road for 15 years, that is about 120,000 pounds of CO2 from fuel use (Carbon Emissions from Cars | American Forests). Meanwhile the Hides from cows have a footprint of about 12.3Kg of CO2 per Kg of hide. If we assume that a car uses 10Kg of leather, which I choose to be too high, that is 123Kg of CO2 for the car. (source for leather: http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/4/12/3279/pdf)
So I calculate this for the CO2 footprint for a typical car's lifetime:
Elon is allowing the car buyer to reduce or eliminate the carbon footprint of the fuel use itself. Seeing how that is the bigger problem by a factor of 1000, I think we should give TM a pass on leather.
Offering faux leather, ok... but there is an opportunity cost in increasing the complexity of the supply chain, which they have just worked hard to simplify. If offering faux leather makes them take their eye off the ball and miss a few car sales that could easily swamp any savings.
The remaining motivation is to be a leader, set an example for the auto industry. Fine to have that opinion, but it is just politicking. You may as well ask Elon to where an anti-leather t-shirt instead.
This is why I called this green-on-green "violence". A company comes out with an effective, compelling way to eliminate (literally) 99.9% of the carbon that your car uses, and people get woked up about the last 0.1%.
I think the distaste for this issue doesn't stem from the fact that half of posters here love animal cruelty or love waste and CO2 from the cattle industry. I also think it isn't because we don't care, this crowd *disproportionately* cares. But targeting Tesla for not quite being perfect yet is annoying. If you look at the millions of cars rolling off the lines right now, lets say they ALL have leather. Each of those cars has a giant implied carbon footprint from all the fuel they will have to burn in their useful life, and a small amount from the leather. Even if you consider that the leather was farmed just for the car, and isn't a waste stream from the beef industry, the total carbon contribution from the leather is miniscule compared to the fuel.
Say a car will be on the road for 15 years, that is about 120,000 pounds of CO2 from fuel use (Carbon Emissions from Cars | American Forests). Meanwhile the Hides from cows have a footprint of about 12.3Kg of CO2 per Kg of hide. If we assume that a car uses 10Kg of leather, which I choose to be too high, that is 123Kg of CO2 for the car. (source for leather: http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/4/12/3279/pdf)
So I calculate this for the CO2 footprint for a typical car's lifetime:
| Fuel (gas) | Leather |
| 120,000Kg | 123Kg |
Offering faux leather, ok... but there is an opportunity cost in increasing the complexity of the supply chain, which they have just worked hard to simplify. If offering faux leather makes them take their eye off the ball and miss a few car sales that could easily swamp any savings.
The remaining motivation is to be a leader, set an example for the auto industry. Fine to have that opinion, but it is just politicking. You may as well ask Elon to where an anti-leather t-shirt instead.
This is why I called this green-on-green "violence". A company comes out with an effective, compelling way to eliminate (literally) 99.9% of the carbon that your car uses, and people get woked up about the last 0.1%.
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"...ask Elon to wear..." is the closest I can come to understanding this. Am I right?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
ROFL!! I hadn't seen that one yet. This site cracks me up with this stuff.
I wonder why the new price increases weren't mentioned - one would think they could spin it into a "more profit this coming quarter" type thing.
As usual there were some decent questions and some less than useful questions. Although I am a huge SpaceX fan I do not think that was the proper venue to ask anything about that company. People asking Elon to speak at some event are a waste of time. People asking questions that have already been answered (i.e. "When will AutoPilot be released?") are wasting everyone's time. But there is no effective way to block such questions.
Some felt that my PowerWall question was too specific. Fair enough, but I think that it resulted in some useful information being revealed and gave Elon and JB the opportunity to make some important points and correct some inaccurate published portrayals of the product. I would have liked to insert a few questions asking for clarification of some things they said but refrained because their responses went on for so long.
Once the PowerWall has started shipping I'm sure that more detailed information will become available.
Some felt that my PowerWall question was too specific. Fair enough, but I think that it resulted in some useful information being revealed and gave Elon and JB the opportunity to make some important points and correct some inaccurate published portrayals of the product. I would have liked to insert a few questions asking for clarification of some things they said but refrained because their responses went on for so long.
Once the PowerWall has started shipping I'm sure that more detailed information will become available.
Ecarfan - I would say your question and the long response was close to the only meaningful portion of the entire Q&A; thank you. I regret to say I am glad I didn't spend a day traveling to/from the meeting...although the post-meeting picnic might have been fun.
I think you need some perspective. No venom. People are allowed to disagree.
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So a 'sigh' is being hostile?
beeeerock
Active Member
I agree. There's no question the cattle industry is a big GHG problem. There's also no question I enjoy a good steak when I think my arteries can handle it. If you ponder the number of cars being produced by Tesla right now and estimate how many buyers would opt for a vegan seating surface, your comments are quite relevant.
However, when the Model III goes into production with BIG numbers coming out the factory door, I expect we'll see a change from Tesla. The non-leather surfaces will undoubtedly be cheaper to produce and will help meet the modest price point necessary to sell well. And with the quantities involved, the GHG savings will then become more relevant. Baby steps... can't jump out of the cradle and start running.
I'm no expert on the leather business, but I suspect that the cows weren't raised solely for their leather. So the leather was likely a by-product of my steak from the other night. I.E., the leather was likely there, why not make use of it? In its current form, it's storing carbon, not decaying and releasing it.
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