2017 Chrysler Pacifica (Minivan) PHEV 30 mile AER

[Jeff N]

I took a Pacifica hybrid for a brief spin on the streets around the LA Automobility event which is a pre-show just before the LA Auto Show opens today.

It seems like a nicely done minivan. I was able to drive it all-electric without problems and had to purposefully accelerate harder to get the gas engine to startup. It was all seamless and the engine was quiet and well-behaved. It uses a hybrid transmission designed by Chrysler (FCA) which is largely similar to a Prius but with a one-way clutch that allows both electric motors to be used together when the gas engine is off.

If I had to drive a minivan I would definitely get the Pacifica hybrid.

 

[bro1999]

If I had to drive a minivan I would definitely get the Pacifica hybrid.

You'd still have to turn in your man card though. But the utility of a minivan can't be beat, I must admit.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

You'd still have to turn in your man card though. But the utility of a minivan can't be beat, I must admit.

No offense, but the Bolt doesn't scream masculinity either...

Anyway, we're getting the Pacifica as soon as it hits lots here...I was irritated to find out that you don't have control over how the system performs. I would rather the vehicle just reduce power than force the gas engine to turn on.

Oh well.

 

[Jeff N]

...we're getting the Pacifica as soon as it hits lots here...I was irritated to find out that you don't have control over how the system performs. I would rather the vehicle just reduce power than force the gas engine to turn on.

Oh well.

The driver gauge displays supposedly provide enough information to allow you to avoid unintentionally causing the gas engine to start but I didn't get enough time behind the wheel to verify that.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

The driver gauge displays supposedly provide enough information to allow you to avoid unintentionally causing the gas engine to start but I didn't get enough time behind the wheel to verify that.

Yeah, but then that would require that I pay more attention to the instrument panel. I'm sure I'll get used to the thresholds, but I just prefer to have control over how I drive the vehicle...rather than how Chrysler thinks I want to drive it.

 

[miimura]

Chrysler dumbed down the EV aspects of this car to the point that they didn't even put "Plug-In" in the name. It's just Pacifica Hybrid.

 

[Jeff N]

Yeah, but then that would require that I pay more attention to the instrument panel. I'm sure I'll get used to the thresholds, but I just prefer to have control over how I drive the vehicle...rather than how Chrysler thinks I want to drive it.

Yes, it would be better if it were an EREV like the Volt where the engine doesn't start due to vehicle speed or accelerator pedal position but it wouldn't have a powerful enough battery to push around its minivan weight with acceleration comparable to the conventional gasoline van.

It has a battery similar in energy capacity and probably roughly in power (unpublished) to the first generation Volt. I suspect it's battery cells are made by LG Chem at the same factory as the Volt cells were made and it seems likely they have a similar chemistry and construction although Chrysler hasn't said much about the pack other than its size. However, the vehicle weighs about 1/3 or almost 1,200 pounds more.

If you break that down in terms of pounds to horsepower you get:

2011 Volt: 25
2017 Pacifica hybrid: 33
2016 Fusion Energi: 43

So, they could have implemented something like the Ford Energi "EV Now" steering wheel button that implements an EREV mode as a driver option. On the Ford, this mode does 0-60 in about 15-16 seconds which is similar to an old 4 cylinder Ford Pinto. That implies that a Pacific hybrid with an "EV Now" mode could have done 0-60 in roughly 12 seconds.

 

[miimura]

One bit of news that did come out was that LG Chem is not only supplying the cells, but the complete pack and BMS. They are delivering completely integrated and assembled packs to Chrysler. One thing you can say about GM is that they developed in-house expertise in battery integration and pack design. Marchionne obviously believes what he said - EVs can be built completely from supplier parts whenever they want to do it.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

One bit of news that did come out was that LG Chem is not only supplying the cells, but the complete pack and BMS. They are delivering completely integrated and assembled packs to Chrysler. One thing you can say about GM is that they developed in-house expertise in battery integration and pack design. Marchionne obviously believes what he said - EVs can be built completely from supplier parts whenever they want to do it.

Which they then gave up on for the Bolt. The Bolt cells, pack, inverter, drivetrain, and electronics also all come from LG.

Interesting Chrysler outsourced all the important bits for the Pacifica to LG as well.

Like I've said, 10 years from now there will only be 4 car companies left: LG, Samsung, Tesla, and Apple (though that one is looking less likely now).

 

[RobStark]

Which they then gave up on for the Bolt. The Bolt cells, pack, inverter, drivetrain, and electronics also all come from LG.

Interesting Chrysler outsourced all the important bits for the Pacifica to LG as well.

Like I've said, 10 years from now there will only be 4 car companies left: LG, Samsung, Tesla, and Apple (though that one is looking less likely now).

There almost certainly will be a Chinese company left standing after many rounds of consolidation of the Chinese Auto Companies.

 

[RobStark]

2017 Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid scored 84 MPGe in government testing

But there's no denying that the official rating – 84 MPGe – is impressive.

As for a conventional rating, the EPA only provides a combined city/highway number on the Monroney sticker, and an FCA spokesperson told us that the rating for the Pacifica Hybrid will be 32 MPG. This represents the hybrid working as normal, not in EV-only mode. It's also an improvement of almost 10 MPG over the combined ratings of the top three conventional minivans in the segment, including the non-hybrid Pacifica.

Range is also fantastic. The EPA rated the total EV-only range as 33 miles, and the overall combined range at a staggering 566 miles. And that's from a fuel tank that's just 17 gallons (compared to the 19-gallon tank in the conventional Pacifica, which nets it a 418-mile EPA-rated range).

 

[Jeff N]

Like I've said, 10 years from now there will only be 4 car companies left: LG, Samsung, Tesla, and Apple (though that one is looking less likely now).

And, as I've been saying, big car companies have been outsourcing major components to specialty parts makers for decades either by buying "off the shelf" or designing the part themselves but outsourcing the manufacturing. They outsource because it saves money or because it gives them time-to-market advantages among other reasons.

GM bought some parts designed by LG (A/C compressor), collaborated on some others (infotainment, battery pack, battery cell chemistry and construction) and also designed in-house for LG to manufacture (motor, drivetrain gearing). They also bought parts from other suppliers like the brake actuator (same Bosch system used by Tesla), battery thermal heater, stability control and ABS, airbags, seats, and more.

The big difference between GM's outsourcing on the Bolt vs their other cars is that they struck a deal to outsource more of their components from LG rather than from a variety of other parts suppliers. As production volume goes up and new models are introduced they will decide which components are cheaper to manufacture in-house. For example, early Toyota and Ford hybrid transmissions were designed by Toyota and Ford but manufactured by Aisin. Later, Toyota and Ford began manufacturing their own hybrid transmissions. As another example, some companies design and manufacture their own Diesel engines like GM. Others, like Chrysler, have outsourced to Cummins etc.

But there's no denying that the official rating – 84 MPGe – is impressive.

Yes, it's very good for a minivan. The Model X is 93 MPGe but it's not as inherently boxy as a traditional minivan.

The combined gas mpg is 45% better than the conventional Pacifica's 22 mpg which a typically great efficiency improvement from a full hybrid vehicle. The Pacifica hybrid's 32 mpg is the same as a 2016 Toyota Yaris compact conventional automatic.

 

[glhs272]

Sorry if I missed it up thread, but is this vehicle going to be available to all 50 US states? Or, is this just another compliance play for the ZEV states?

 

[timpierc]

Sorry if I missed it up thread, but is this vehicle going to be available to all 50 US states? Or, is this just another compliance play for the ZEV states?

It'll be available in all 50 states. Obviously California and Oregon are getting first deployment dibs.

 

[miimura]

Which they then gave up on for the Bolt. The Bolt cells, pack, inverter, drivetrain, and electronics also all come from LG.

Interesting Chrysler outsourced all the important bits for the Pacifica to LG as well.

Like I've said, 10 years from now there will only be 4 car companies left: LG, Samsung, Tesla, and Apple (though that one is looking less likely now).

There is no denying that LG is doing a lot of parts for the Bolt EV, but I was under the impression that GM is still building the Bolt EV pack itself. The story I saw said that LG Chem were only setting up pack assembly in Michigan for one automaker and that was for the Pacifica Hybrid.

 

[Jeff N]

There is no denying that LG is doing a lot of parts for the Bolt EV, but I was under the impression that GM is still building the Bolt EV pack itself. The story I saw said that LG Chem were only setting up pack assembly in Michigan for one automaker and that was for the Pacifica Hybrid.

Both the Bolt EV battery cells and pack are made in South Korea by LG. The Volt cells are made in Michigan by LG but are assembled into a pack by GM at another factory site.

 

[miimura]

Both the Bolt EV battery cells and pack are made in South Korea by LG.

That is truly disappointing. The logistics of getting more packs from Korea will be a significant obstacle to increasing production. If GM had tooled up to assemble the packs at Brownstone at least they would be in control of that portion. It would not matter where the cells came from, Michigan or Korea. I understand that product planning and overall program ramp up requires long lead times to change, but this just feels so much worse than just getting more cells. LG Chem must have made them an offer they couldn't refuse. I knew that LG Chem was making a push into selling complete packs, I just had no idea that they had won that portion of the Bolt program.

 

[Jeff N]

That is truly disappointing. The logistics of getting more packs from Korea will be a significant obstacle to increasing production. If GM had tooled up to assemble the packs at Brownstone at least they would be in control of that portion. It would not matter where the cells came from, Michigan or Korea. I understand that product planning and overall program ramp up requires long lead times to change, but this just feels so much worse than just getting more cells. LG Chem must have made them an offer they couldn't refuse. I knew that LG Chem was making a push into selling complete packs, I just had no idea that they had won that portion of the Bolt program.

There are multiple variables involved in making this kind of decision and we don't know what they all are. One aspect is that these are new generation cells and it may be that LG wanted a closer eye on their production back home where the key cell engineers are much like Intel and AMD used to begin production of new processor chips in the US before scaling production in larger offshore plants.

In the long run it probably makes more sense to co-locate battery cell and pack plants near the assembly plants like Tesla is planning for Europe and Asia. I expect LG to expand their Michigan plant and start making the Bolt batteries in the US at some point.

 

[PeterK]

Which they then gave up on for the Bolt. The Bolt cells, pack, inverter, drivetrain, and electronics also all come from LG.

Interesting Chrysler outsourced all the important bits for the Pacifica to LG as well.

Like I've said, 10 years from now there will only be 4 car companies left: LG, Samsung, Tesla, and Apple (though that one is looking less likely now).

I've been thinking similarly. GM turning to LG with the Bolt is like IBM turning to Intel and Microsoft with the original PC. Got them to market quickly but they later discovered that nearly all of the profits were going to their suppliers.

 

[Jeff N]

I've been thinking similarly. GM turning to LG with the Bolt is like IBM turning to Intel and Microsoft with the original PC. Got them to market quickly but they later discovered that nearly all of the profits were going to their suppliers.

It's really not an equivalent situation. The problem with Intel and Microsoft is that their contributions defined the end-user application compatibility layer of the IBM product and they became indispensable brands of their own. No such equivalent exists for LG and GM. LG is just a replaceable commodity parts supplier. Bolt owners largely don't know or care about who supplies the battery pack and the pack charges using standard plug interfaces.