Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
The OP claimed the contribution indicated JB's expectation of a share price rise in the near term. Is it correct to interpret it as indeterminate of share price anticipation but just a function of nearing expirations?



Really? Since you can read my mind, how good are you in reading JB's?

According to the Proxy his option status, at 12/31/16 was:

Award Date..Exercisable..Un-Exercisable Un-Earned Strike..Expiration

a) 4/11/2016 10,599 52,999 —------------ 249.92 4/11/2026
b) 1/13/2014 55,000 -------------- 165,000 139.34 1/13/2024
c) 7/8/2013 1,050 —--------- —---------- 121.61 7/8/2023
d) 6/10/2013 700 —---------- —----------- 100.05 6/10/2023
e) 5/13/2013 700 ------------- —--------------- 87.80 5/13/2023
f) 4/8/2013 350 —----------- —------------- 41.83 4/8/2023
g) 3/11/2013 700 —---------- —----------- 39.10 3/11/2023
h) 2/11/2013 350 —--------- —------------- 38.42 2/11/2023
i) 6/11/2012 700 —----------- —------------ 29.12 6/11/2022
j) 2/13/2012 50,000 —------- —----------- 31.49 2/13/2022
k) 1/9/2012 350 —--------- —----------- 27.25 1/9/2022
l) 12/12/2011 350 —----------- —---------- 30.41 12/12/2021
m) 3/14/2011 350 —------------ —--------- 23.25 3/14/2021
n) 1/10/2011 50,000 —------- —--------- 28.45 1/10/2021
o) 9/13/2010 20,000 —------- —--------- 20.72 9/13/2020
p) 6/12/2010 2,450 —---------- —--------- 14.17 6/11/2017
q) 6/12/2010 116,650 —-------- —-------- 14.17 6/11/2017

The reason to sell/exercise the awards in p) and q) is obvious. But for the other ~12,000, why choose:
i) 4,209 of the 50,000 in n);
ii) 7,493 of the 50,000 in j);
iii) 270 of the 10,599 in a) ???

I see these were all reported as ISOs rather than Non-Qualifying awards, but why do an allocation rather than using all from the nearest expiration or the highest or lowest basis?



Do think the additional ~12,000 early exercise/sells may be related to the loans from the banking affiliates of the underwriting syndicates. SEC filings show JB's pledges of TSLA shares have been:
12/31/15 90,380
9/23/16 87,066
12/31/16 127,925

Director Denholm's "need" appears urgent. She sold 20,000 shares for $311.76 with a basis of $259.94 for a pre-tax gain of ~$1.04 million. Assuming an effective income and employment tax rate of about 55%, she netted about $467,000. Her rights would not have expired for over four years. In fairness, it was her first sale since appointment in August, 2014.



Someone may need to have a sit down with Kimbal; so far in less than the first five months of 2017 his exercise/sells on Form 4s have been:
DATE SHARES
5/3/17 2,500
4/11/17 2,191
4/3/17 2,500
3/1/17 2,500
2/1/17 2,500
1/3/17 2,500
So far, selling those ~14,700 shares netted Kimbal a pre-tax gain of $3.5+ million.

In 2016 Kimbal sold ~20,800 shares in 4 fillings for a net pre-tax gain of $4.1+ million
In 2015 Kimbal sold ~24,600 shares in 4 fillings for a net pre-tax gain of $5.1+ million
In 2014 Kimbal sold ~31,600 shares in 5 fillings (basis not clearly reported)
In 2013 Kimbal sold ~22,500 shares in 5 fillings (basis not clearly reported)
In 2012 Kimbal sold ~18,200 shares in 2 fillings (basis not clearly reported)
In 2011 Kimbal sold ~6,700 shares in 2 fillings (basis not clearly reported)
In 2010 Kimbal sold ~50,800 shares in 1 filling (basis not clearly reported)

Likely all and most of the latter two transactions were cashing in his pre-IPO investment, but the rest are not bad compensation for attending 6 to 12 BoD meetings/year. SEC filings show Kimbal's pledges of TSLA shares have been:
12/31/15 148,333
9/23/16 148,333
12/31/16 164,154
(Likely reflects the conversion of pledged SCTY shares to TSLA shares) Kimbal's form 4s show he generally sells down to around the shares pledged.

I get the role that option awards play in SV compensation and the "corporate handcuffs" aspect of options and RSUs. My concerns are:
1. No officer nor director ever bought shares in the secondary market (even in February 2016) and most have sold frequently, even though their rights do not expire for years--(Elon has bought in some of the follow-on equity offerings but that appears to be more about maintaining effective control as the largest, but still minority owner and to help market the offering while using a line of credit from the banking affiliates of the underwriting syndicate.)
2. None of the criteria for option awards have ever been based on achieving Net Income goals.
YMMV.
I don't have time to respond point by point to all of this, but I'll make a few points (come back to me with more bite-sized questions if you have any lingering concerns).

The tranche(s) being exercised is almost always solely driven by the executive's personal tax advisor. I don't often know why certain tranches are being exercised bc everyone has unique financial considerations, but it makes perfect sense to the tax guys. I'm not going to sift through the Outstanding Awards proxy tables (one of my least favorite to put together by the way, what a pain), but if he's focusing on ISOs the reason is most likely because ISOs are tax free (though factored into AMT). Add in the fact that there's charitable donations and possible pledging and you'll be spitting into the wind guessing what the point of it all is. I see no indications of someone trying to cash out or catch a top, however. I also don't see this as a bullish "price about to explode" transaction, either. It's just neutral (aside from the near-term expiry, that's obvious) and driven by personal needs/wants.

Everything you are saying about directors is a red herring and not applicable to what I said. You'll notice I limited all my comments to executives, not directors. Non-executive directors are not subject to the same institutional pressures that executives are. In fact, executives go out of their way to not tell directors what to do with company shares bc of the appearance of "meddling." Non-executive directors are usually held in very high regard and treated with kid gloves at all stages, even with a powerful CEO Chairman.

Thus, non-executive directors are all over the map with share transactions and there's nothing you can read into them. Some just hold forever. Some make a regular habit of selling (Kimball...) and the executives and certainly not the lawyers (me...) are going to say "ummm, Kimbal? Could you go ahead and stop selling so damn often? My phone is ringing off the hook from investors asking why he's selling (yes, these calls are common, and annoying) and my hands are getting tired from preparing Form 4s. kthxbai." Again, they have their own reasons. Most are for diversification and not getting overweighted in anything.

Officers and directors at heavily equity-based comp companies almost never buy on the open market. Why the hell would they? Comp at such places are often weighted 10% base salary, 15% bonus and 75% (or more) equity. You're telling me they should shift even more to equity? Also, the same institutional pressures apply. Everything is perceived to send a signal and they don't even want to send positive signals. They want to send no signals, ever. Elon is an obvious exception.

Options are an unusual vehicle for directors, though that's the culture at a SV startup. 60/40 mix of full-value shares and cash is most common. I'm not troubled by it.

You are concerned that options don't have net income goals? This proves to me you don't have deep executive compensation knowledge or experience. The vast VAST majority of option compensation (at least 95%) are not tied to ANY goals, at all. There is built-in motivation in the options themselves - they have no value at all unless the SP increases after the grant date. In fact, options are rapidly falling out of favor with companies bc many executives find them non-motivational (relative to RSAs/RSUs) even without additional performance conditions, due to the risk of them going to 0 (often without anything done on their part - macros can certainly make naked options be worthless and therefore non-motivational). Adding all the performance conditions just made them even more performance-based, in a very non-market (and shareholder-friendly) manner. Asking for anything more than that is madness. Especially since Tesla comp is insanely equity heavy at the top as it is. They are cashing in huge bc they have grown the SP 20 times over.

I guess this ended up longer than expected, sorry.
 
I think you are overly optimistic to think these 100 companies would be so inept. There will be competition. It will be a good thing as long as Tesla maintains its technical edge. The thought that there will not be competition is silly, it is literally part of the Tesla business plan. Competition will actually help accelerate the adoption of Tesla's products by removing the stigma around explosive batteries that leave you stranded because there is no where to charge and blah blah. Tesla will position itself as the Iphone to Android where Iphone has like 90% of the profits even though it only has 30% market share.

I dont worry about competition because I see it as a positive and I see Tesla doing the things today that it needs to, to be competitive for the long haul.

I'm not afraid of competition. I agree that competition is imperative to Tesla's mission. I don't think that there won't be competition, just that there currently isn't, and all of the incumbent competitors saying they'll have a vehicle out in 2019/2020 are either full of crap, or they're just more low-volume compliance cars.

All I'm saying is that the people who suggest Tesla is vulnerable to competition from their deep pocketed incumbent competitors (and that true competing products are just around the corner) are wrong.

Until someone, ANYONE, announces they're breaking ground on a battery factory of even *kind of* comparable scale, they are not competing. They can't. Tesla is on the verge of producing in excess of 500,000 EVs/yr in the next 2 years. Nobody else can even come close to that number because the batteries simply don't exist.

Tesla is also about to start building 3-4 more factories in that same timeframe because aggregate demand for all vehicle types is outstripping even that 500,000/yr mark. Building a factory takes years. Nobody else has said publically that they're building one of appropriate scale to compete directly with GF1, and Tesla is already talking about GF6.

Its a huge moat, and unless someone else starts throwing big piles of cash at it soon, Tesla's going to run away with the market. This is very much like what happened in the smartphone world. Blackberry had a huge lead, and then sat idly by while iPhone and Android both came and ate its lunch.
 
I'm not afraid of competition. I agree that competition is imperative to Tesla's mission. I don't think that there won't be competition, just that there currently isn't, and all of the incumbent competitors saying they'll have a vehicle out in 2019/2020 are either full of crap, or they're just more low-volume compliance cars.

All I'm saying is that the people who suggest Tesla is vulnerable to competition from their deep pocketed incumbent competitors (and that true competing products are just around the corner) are wrong.

Until someone, ANYONE, announces they're breaking ground on a battery factory of even *kind of* comparable scale, they are not competing. They can't. Tesla is on the verge of producing in excess of 500,000 EVs/yr in the next 2 years. Nobody else can even come close to that number because the batteries simply don't exist.

Tesla is also about to start building 3-4 more factories in that same timeframe because aggregate demand for all vehicle types is outstripping even that 500,000/yr mark. Building a factory takes years. Nobody else has said publically that they're building one of appropriate scale to compete directly with GF1, and Tesla is already talking about GF6.

Its a huge moat, and unless someone else starts throwing big piles of cash at it soon, Tesla's going to run away with the market. This is very much like what happened in the smartphone world. Blackberry had a huge lead, and then sat idly by while iPhone and Android both came and ate its lunch.


lithium-ion-china-chart.jpg

Source

There will be plenty of battery supply for car companies, Tesla's advantage is their involvement in the supply chain while other auto companies will get their supply from suppliers.
 
View attachment 227402
Source

There will be plenty of battery supply for car companies, Tesla's advantage is their involvement in the supply chain while other auto companies will get their supply from suppliers.
While there will be supplies available from suppliers, it is the fact that the are from suppliers will be the key point. Vertical integration allows Tesla to capture that profit margin that would have gone to the supplier instead. For a $35,000 car, a $5,500 battery is 15% of the sales price, but assuming the car costs $30k to make, it is 18% of the production cost. If you're looking at 30% margin on the batteries, then that means 5.5% of the car cost can be avoided.
For 500,000 cars a year, that 5.5% is $1,650/car for a total of $825mil/yr cost savings for a $35k car that costs $30k to make.

Again, not saying that the other car companies can't do it, but an extra 5.5% on total vehicle cost is a pretty good advantage, assuming all other items are similar.
 
I put down a deposit for the tesla roof and received a call from a tesla employee at tesla energy in Holland. During the brief call I asked him when I could expect to receive my model 3's. He told me that production would start in july for employees and that I could expect mine in first half of 2018.
It's a weak data point as he most likely doesn't have any special insight - but a data point none the less.
 
View attachment 227402
Source

There will be plenty of battery supply for car companies, Tesla's advantage is their involvement in the supply chain while other auto companies will get their supply from suppliers.

You realize that graph only shows Tesla's GF1 at its original 35GWh capacity, not the revised 105GWh capacity it is now targeting, right? And that even so, Tesla accounts for nearly 1/3 of the future capacity shown?

CATL is the only other one even kind of on the same playing field as Tesla.
 
You realize that graph only shows Tesla's GF1 at its original 35GWh capacity, not the revised 105GWh capacity it is now targeting, right? And that even so, Tesla accounts for nearly 1/3 of the future capacity shown?

CATL is the only other one even kind of on the same playing field as Tesla.
Tesla GF1 @ 105GWh is only enough to supply ~1M cars.

CATL might be able to supply 300k cars, if they're lucky.
 
View attachment 227402
Source

There will be plenty of battery supply for car companies, Tesla's advantage is their involvement in the supply chain while other auto companies will get their supply from suppliers.

Notice not only does that graphic for 2020 only reflect the original size of GF1, not its tripling, as others have pointed out, but, also, it reflects production from only 1 GF. Tesla expects to announce plans for 4 more GFs this year. While they may not all be battery plants, and probably won't be producing at full capacity by 2020, it's very very likely yet another several fold under representation of Tesla production in that graphic.
 
I put down a deposit for the tesla roof and received a call from a tesla employee at tesla energy in Holland. During the brief call I asked him when I could expect to receive my model 3's. He told me that production would start in july for employees and that I could expect mine in first half of 2018.
It's a weak data point as he most likely doesn't have any special insight - but a data point none the less.
Did you mention when you reserved it?
 
Tesla GF1 @ 105GWh is only enough to supply ~1M cars.

CATL might be able to supply 300k cars, if they're lucky.

So one competitor can supply 1/3, gee I wonder what 100 competitors can do. Again, not bad just inevitable. Elon has opened a lot of eyes and minds. I hate to harp on the whole iphone thing, but there are parallels. I had my first smartphone, a windows phone with a stylus and I thought it was good and all, but I had zero clue that less then 10 years literally half the humans on the planet would have an iphone or google phone and no one would have a MS phone.. If I had known that I wouldn't be chatting with you fools, I would be on a beach without a care in the world. I am not missing it this time.
 
Happy New Year everyone! Best wishes for a safe and prosperous 2017!

We have so many catalysts coming up... round after round of AP2 enhancements, Gigafactory opening, PowerWall 2 shipping, and hopefully solid Q4 results. Plus, the home stretch for the Model 3 launch is in sight.
You forgot to mention the Electric Trucks coming, the tunneling project and the TesLoop Tech..Moderator-deleted content
 
Last edited by a moderator:
i'm estimating global auto-pilot take rate around 48% using data from the 10q. comments on the methodology appreciated:

10q mentions 81.1m of ap2 revenue recognized in q1 17 with no mention of deferrals. assuming that's all the ap 2.0 revenue, and assuming 9k vehicles sold in q4 2016 w/ap2 hardware and 24.5k vehicles sold in q1 2017 w/ap2 hardware:

then if take rate = r:
33,500 vehicles x r x $5000 = $81,100,000
r = 48.42%

that gives approx. 1 time recognition in q1 2017 as:
9,000 vehicles x 0.4842 x 5000 = 21.8 m revenue of ap2 vehicles from q4 16 recognized in q1 17.

and 81.1m - 21.8m = 59.3m = ap2 revenue from vehicles sold in q1 2017.
There were lots of AP1 vehicles sold in January/February. Huge majority of the inventory was AP1. I bought one, signed Jan 20, was delivered Feb 17th. I saw 10 almost identical 60D sold in a week preceeding to my purchase on the low price end (in Ontario), not sure how many more expensive variants sold, but they were 95% AP1 in Canada
 
  • Informative
Reactions: erthquake
So one competitor can supply 1/3, gee I wonder what 100 competitors can do. Again, not bad just inevitable. Elon has opened a lot of eyes and minds. I hate to harp on the whole iphone thing, but there are parallels. I had my first smartphone, a windows phone with a stylus and I thought it was good and all, but I had zero clue that less then 10 years literally half the humans on the planet would have an iphone or google phone and no one would have a MS phone.. If I had known that I wouldn't be chatting with you fools, I would be on a beach without a care in the world. I am not missing it this time.

That one competitor (CATL) is the single largest by a factor of 2 over the next closest, and closer to a factor of 10 over the rest. 100 competitors of that size *cannot* pop up overnight. That's my point. Not that there won't *eventually* be competition. Obviously there will, but for now, it still requires announcement, followed by construction, of a large enough factory before it needs to be taken seriously as a risk to the valuation of Tesla.

Looking into CATL some more, it seems like they've said they plan to open a 50GWh facility before 2020, but they have to IPO first in order to source the funds to do it. Hard to tell from anglophone websites but it seems to me like this factory is not going to be completed on the advertised timeline since it doesn't yet appear to have its funding lined up.
 
Mercedes-Benz and Vivint Solar partner to compete with Tesla in home energy

man... this is getting humorous to watch... you can compare the numbers and make your declarations that "Tesla IS THE ONLY ONE!"...

but they're not. things missing from the current valuation:

a) competition
b) risk

go ahead and reinforce it with all your "disagrees" and replies that "Mercedez is a dinosaur"... and "there will be no companies other than Tesla in 5 years!"

it's just getting funny at this point.
What competitors do you think are worth investing in as future EV makers, excluding legacy ICE products?
 
That one competitor (CATL) is the single largest by a factor of 2 over the next closest, and closer to a factor of 10 over the rest. 100 competitors of that size *cannot* pop up overnight. That's my point. Not that there won't *eventually* be competition. Obviously there will, but for now, it still requires announcement, followed by construction, of a large enough factory before it needs to be taken seriously as a risk to the valuation of Tesla.

Looking into CATL some more, it seems like they've said they plan to open a 50GWh facility before 2020, but they have to IPO first. Hard to tell from anglophone websites but it seems to me like this factory is not going to be completed on the advertised timeline.

They really can popup overnight because they have been building them for months. It seems like there are several new articles everyday about how x company is building a battery factory. You act as if no one is building anything today? LG Chem said it was going to double or triple its plant that supplies the bolt. I think Jeff Dahn said something like a Chinese company has a thousand engineers working on battery tech. They are sitting on their hands. If it's Tesla vs the world then its a fair fight is all im saying. No one competitor has a chance.
 
Someone may need to have a sit down with Kimbal; so far in less than the first five months of 2017 his exercise/sells on Form 4s have been:
DATE SHARES
5/3/17 2,500
4/11/17 2,191
4/3/17 2,500
3/1/17 2,500
2/1/17 2,500
1/3/17 2,500
I believe Kimbal has a predefined plan of sales -- note the monthly sales on the first business day like clockwork -- and is living off the income from them (he doesn't really have an outside job, does he?). Maintaining his lifestyle off the sales, I guess.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.