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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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I well remember that. I sold the SCTY shares that I owned back then about six weeks later when they surpassed his price target. I was most appreciative.

Indeed! Didn't realize that it actually hit his PT of $81 momentarily. That probably made his Tiprank score shine through the solar paneled roofs :) You acted very wisely, if you did unload at that peak. Ben Kallo seems to have been a fan of all the creative financing skulduggery in those days.

But the long term investors got fleeced nonetheless.
SCTY_chart.JPG
 
Indeed! Didn't realize that it actually hit his PT of $81 momentarily. That probably made his Tiprank score shine through the solar paneled roofs :) You acted very wisely, if you did unload at that peak. Ben Kallo seems to have been a fan of all the creative financing skulduggery in those days.

But the long term investors got fleeced nonetheless.
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Once it hit his price target, then all his bets were off. Anyone who stayed with it after that was on his own.
 
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Has there ever been a comprehensive post about the durable advantages of a BEV vs. ICE car?

For example, BEV's provide instant torque, which ICE cannot.

Another example, fuel cost for BEV's is one-third to one-half of what it is for ICE.

What are some of the other major advantages or disadvantages?
Ease of "refuelling" has already been mentioned.

The other, really big deal, is *BEVs don't shake*. You don't realize it until you've been driving all-electric for a long time and get in an ICE car, but those damn piston engines *shake*. In every single car. No exceptions. The whole car shakes. (Turbines share less than piston engines but are very rare in cars.)
 
I'm fairly confident that Tesla will dominate a fully autonomous, all-electric future, and that the SP will eventually reflect this.

Therefore I'd like to incrementally shift my research on the next multi-trillion dollar industry that Tesla will disrupt.

What do you think it is? What do you wish you knew more about for your investment in TSLA?

An obvious one is energy generation through the rollout of Solar Roof v1, v2, and v3, in the next three to five years. For this, I'm conducting interviews with roofers and other real estate professionals.

Another obvious one is trucking, which is a larger opportunity, but slightly further out in the future as Tesla Semi is still a concept.

Thank you in advance for sharing your ideas, questions, feedback, grudges, and your love for bears.

Trucking will happen first. Roofing is remarkably slow-moving. Diesel trucks have SHORT lifespans. The trucking industry can be disrupted VERY fast. I'd find trucking more interesting (though there's *already* competition coming)
 
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The situation looks like a go board to me. Tesla has been placing stones strategically on the board while the incumbents were making nice straight rows. The analysts have been saying wow that Musk guy is stupid, he's just placing stones randomly while the old car companies have these nice straight lines. "Oh look it only took the old car companies "only" 6 stones to take one man from Tesla. Then suddenly and unexpectedly the game is over and all of the opposition men are removed from the board. Tesla wins. Boy they and their supportive analysts just don't see it coming.

That's the best summary of the situation I've ever seen.
 
Really? Then maybe the U.S. Freeway should be barred as unsafe (it is)
I'm not going to disagree with this; you're right. It's essentially grandfathered -- they tolerated all kinds of ridiculously unsafe crap in the 1950s when they built those -- it was the era of bare-handed handling of plutonium.

Doesn't mean something equally unsafe will be authorized today.
 
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Wow, Tuscon Electric signs solar+storage PPS for 'less than 4.5c/kWh'.

The project calls for a 100MW solar array and 30MW, 120MWh energy storage system, both to be developed by NexEra Energy and deployed by the end of 2019. It is interesting that proposal noted solar/storage Kaua'i PPA as a reference, as well as noting that conventional peakers in Arizona produce power at about $0.20/kWh. There is no word on who will supply solar panels and batteries for the project.

Thanks for posting!

Utikity Dive needs to be more careful about comparing solar+storage systems. Specifically it matter how much storage is being paired. Insolation may also matter. Hawaii gets about 6 kWh/kW/day and Arizon 6.5 kWh/kW/day.

The SolarCity facility with 13MW solar and 52 MWh solar is thus able to store about 67% of energy generated on an average day, and the PPA is at 13.5c/kWh.

The AES facility also in Kauai will have 28MW solar and 100MWh for 11c/kWh, but this system stores just 60% of average power generation. So far the comparison is not so skew, but clearly it does cost more to be able to store more.

Now this Arizona facility has 100MW solar and just 120MWh storage to store just 18% of average daily generation. This is how they get to 4.5c/kWh.

Assuming 3c/kWh is for solar only, and 1.5c per total system kWh. But storing just 18%, this implies a storage cost of 8.125c/kWh on a per stored energy basis. Had this system gone with 60% or 67% storage, then the price would have be more like 7.84c/kWh or 8.42c/kWh, respectively.

So the Arizona system does fairly competitive, but making a fair adjustment for the amount of storage provided does narrow the gap considerably. It may well be that 18% storage is just the right amount for the Arizona market, but it would be good to discuss how that ought to be determined.
 
Wow, Tuscon Electric signs solar+storage PPS for 'less than 4.5c/kWh'.

The project calls for a 100MW solar array and 30MW, 120MWh energy storage system, both to be developed by NexEra Energy and deployed by the end of 2019. It is interesting that proposal noted solar/storage Kaua'i PPA as a reference, as well as noting that conventional peakers in Arizona produce power at about $0.20/kWh. There is no word on who will supply solar panels and batteries for the project.

Another interesting tidbit is that:

As promised, here is my take on the significance of the sizing of the storage portion of the system.

Almost all large solar+storage projects had storage capacity in kWh rated at 4x of the solar capacity in kW. This sizing makes (averaged overall) solar capacity totally dispatchable (I suspect this sizing rule is geographically dependent, but 4x apparently works for California, Hawaii and Arizona **EDIT** See @jhm post above on more color and clarification of this - perfect timing :)). This means that the BES is large enough that all of the energy generated during the day can be stored and discharged into the grid at any time, say late afternoon/evening peak hours. The advanatge of this sizing is full dispatchability, which, however, comes at a cost of required large BES.

While a lot of attention was dedicated to the elimination of net metering in Arizona, another very consequential proposal a Clean Peak Standard or CPS, did not garner much attention (I need to do more research on this, but as far as I know now it is still a mandate proposed by the state's consumer advocate and endorsed Arizona Comissioner). Here are the highlights from the link:

An unprecedented proposal from Arizona’s consumer advocate on how to improve the state’s renewables mandate could be a policy whose time has come throughout the nation.

In August, Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) Chair Doug Little opened the first review of Arizona’s Renewable Energy Standards and Tariff (REST) in almost 11 years. His surprising suggestions to increase the state's 15% renewables mandate to 30% by 2030 and to include new technologies like energy storage were initially expected to be the most controversial topics in the proceeding (Docket E-00000Q-16-0289).

But a white paper just introduced last week by Arizona’s Residential Utility Consumer Office (RUCO) would enhance the mandate in a completely new way by adding a mandate for renewables to meet peak demand.

While the idea is new, its immediate relevance to grid needs across the nation is already attracting attention of regulators, utilities, and important private sector players in other states.

Traditional renewables mandates do not differentiate between renewable MWh based on their value to the grid, the RUCO white paper notes. But states with high wind and solar penetrations are already seeing times when there is more renewable generation than the system needs. That overgeneration can result in curtailment if it occurs during times of low power demand, with fast-reacting natural gas turbines ramping up during evening usage spikes.

Driven by renewable portfolio standard (RPS) mandates, more states will be achieving high levels of renewables penetration, the white paper reports. “New approaches will likely be needed to guard against diminishing returns of a simple MWh-based approach.”

The CPS builds on the RPS construct “by adding a new dimension whereby a certain percent of energy delivered to customers during peak load hours must be derived from clean energy sources,” the white paper explains. A 30% CPS would require 30% of delivered MWh during the identified peak demand period to come from “qualifying clean peak resources.”

As can be noted, reduction of the BES portion of the system for the TEC solar+storage system from the "conventional" MWh size of 4x of the solar MW to the MWh capacity of 4x of 30% of the solar MW capacity, i.e. 30 MW, 120MWh has the following advantages:
  • Reduces overall cost of the system and PPA pricing due to reduced BES size, which makes only 30% of solar MW capacity dispatchable, with the rest being provided to the grid at the time it is generated
  • is consistent with the CPS approach
  • demonstrates that solar+storage can compete not only with fossil **peaking** generation capacity, but fossil **intermediate** capacity as well
Currently the CPS approach is being seriously considered in California and Arizona, and, if adopted, will be another de-facto mandate for the deployment of BES, while addressing grid operator concerns over high penetration of the renewables.
 
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I'm going to be in town and I could go to the shareholder's meeting, but given what I've seen before, I'll probably skip it. The Q&A is painful to watch, much less be actually in the room and sit through it.

I would be interested in meeting up with people before/or after the meeting though.
Last years 2 hour "History of Tesla" by Elon and JB was quite interesting. My wife and I left right after in order to miss the Q&A.
 
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@jhm - what resource do you use for the insolation data? Thanks
Solar Insolation Map
Thanks for your post above. Nice tag team action.

I recall some while back we got into a discussion about how much storage to pair with solar. You were more set on 4h while I thought 1h or 2h would suffice if that were widespread practice. It's nice to see that such a discussion is making its way into policy. I suspect that as long as a state like California is forcing curtailment on a nontrivial amount of solar, that is a defacto indication that there is not enough storage in the system or it is not being properly used to minimize curtailments. So it seems that a minimal amount of storage paired with new solar would safeguard the value of incremental solar. It may feel like a bit of an imposition on solar to add storage, but in reality it enhances the market share solar claims. Without a certain level of paired storage, solar is ceding market share to other peaking generators. It will be interesting to see how this gets resolved.
 
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