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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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You seem to imply that GM and F will have to keep paying their workers. That is wrong. They routinely cut productions in some plants and lay off workers to adjust to market demands. Here is one from Q1 of 2017. SUV demand is up, passenger car demand is down. So, they laid off 2000 workers.
GM to Cut Production Shifts at Michigan, Ohio Plants

OK, I'll bite..
GM and F have other costs than salaries. Costs that will not disappear with layoff's. Just to name one Pension obligations :

"As of FYE 2015, the pension plan is underfunded by a whopping $21 billion. That's a $21 billion hole that the company would eventually have to fill. "
Quote taken from your (probably) favorite site SA: General Motors' Pension Problem - General Motors Company (NYSE:GM) | Seeking Alpha

And :
At the end of fiscal 2015, General Motors’ global pension obligations stood at $95 billion. They were underfunded by $21 billion. General Motors’ funding status was at 78%. At the same time, Ford’s global pension obligations stood at $75 billion. They were underfunded by $8 billion. Ford’s funding status was at 89%
Comparing General Motors and Ford's Huge Pension Obligations - Market Realist

And, it is actually a more short term 'issue' for GM :
"GM’s pension plan for Opel and Vauxhall retirees is underfunded by about $9 billion, according to data compiled by Bloomberg News"
GM, PSA haggle over $9 billion pension gap, report says


Let me put that into perspective for you :

Market cap Pension obligations

GM 51B 95B

F 48B 75B

Maybe you can add the Tesla line for me ?

I am not a finance specialist, but such figures would scare the hell out of me.. certainly considering such company having to deal with a market downturn.

Now, you might say, the GM fund will pay its obligation from the return on its investments. Unfortunately it has "not been performing very well", and a market downturn will increase the problem immensely by resulting in a loss on its assets.

And that is just ONE of the fixed costs that GM, F, Toyota etc, etc can not just lower (interest payments, write- off's, costs for the layoff's itself).
I let you google such others yourself.


The above should also been taken into account in any comparison of TSLA and GM/F market cap and valuations.

BTW: your remark about Tesla shutting down production in Q1 to save costs is simply a lie.. if not libel.
Note: I will NOT discuss that Q1-production issue with you. You are very much aware of Tesla's official announcement about the short production stop. IMHO TMC moderator should remove that part of your comment.

Edit : MMD, thanks for reminding me about just one more of the big advantages Tesla has. Reconfirmed my long term long position.
 
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I'm very good confused by these photos of 476 robots getting installed for M3 production line.

We already have a number of Release Candidate Model 3s driving around.
These cars were "roduced/assembled on "Production Hardware" according to Tesla. This is why tesla calls them RC cars and not Beta cars.

Ok, well WHAT Production Hardware?!

Those pictures trouble me. I honestly thought they were much further ahead. Nearly 500 robots is not some trivial part of the line that they need to fill in. It's a major undertaking. Especially programming the robots may not be trivial (depends on the complexity of that particular station and how much two or three robots need to be synced). Another big risk is that they don't have enough time to optimize the production line and hence will produce for a longer than planned period at lower capacity. Or, worse, have to shut down the line for a week to optimize everything like they had to do for S/X once or twice a year. At least on two separate occasions it created major production lapses.
 
Those pictures trouble me. I honestly thought they were much further ahead. Nearly 500 robots is not some trivial part of the line that they need to fill in. It's a major undertaking. Especially programming the robots may not be trivial (depends on the complexity of that particular station and how much two or three robots need to be synced). Another big risk is that they don't have enough time to optimize the production line and hence will produce for a longer than planned period at lower capacity. Or, worse, have to shut down the line for a week to optimize everything like they had to do for S/X once or twice a year. At least on two separate occasions it created major production lapses.
I'm not sure we have enough information to assess the significance of the pictures. For all we know, this is a second Model 3 production line.

But I suspect these are the robots for the final assembly, while the BIW line is further along. They may however already have worked out the SW 99% in simulations, and they likely have a configurable array of robots in a lab somewhere, where they can test out all the different operations at each station on the production line.

Making the release candidates on the actual BIW line, and doing final assembly using development robots but actual SW, should be close enough for Tesla to allow themselves to say that they used production hardware.
 
OK, I'll bite..
GM and F have other costs than salaries. Costs that will not disappear with layoff's. Just to name one Pension obligations :

"As of FYE 2015, the pension plan is underfunded by a whopping $21 billion. That's a $21 billion hole that the company would eventually have to fill. "
Quote taken from your (probably) favorite site SA: General Motors' Pension Problem - General Motors Company (NYSE:GM) | Seeking Alpha

And :
At the end of fiscal 2015, General Motors’ global pension obligations stood at $95 billion. They were underfunded by $21 billion. General Motors’ funding status was at 78%. At the same time, Ford’s global pension obligations stood at $75 billion. They were underfunded by $8 billion. Ford’s funding status was at 89%
Comparing General Motors and Ford's Huge Pension Obligations - Market Realist

And, it is actually a more short term 'issue' for GM :
"GM’s pension plan for Opel and Vauxhall retirees is underfunded by about $9 billion, according to data compiled by Bloomberg News"
GM, PSA haggle over $9 billion pension gap, report says


Let me put that into perspective for you :

Market cap Pension obligations

GM 51B 95B

F 48B 75B

Maybe you can add the Tesla line for me ?

I am not a finance specialist, but such figures would scare the hell out of me.. certainly considering such company having to deal with a market downturn.

Now, you might say, the GM fund will pay its obligation from the return on its investments. Unfortunately it has "not been performing very well", and a market downturn will increase the problem immensely by resulting in a loss on its assets.

And that is just ONE of the fixed costs that GM, F, Toyota etc, etc can not just lower (interest payments, write- off's, costs for the layoff's itself).
I let you google such others yourself.


The above should also been taken into account in any comparison of TSLA and GM/F market cap and valuations.

BTW: your remark about Tesla shutting down production in Q1 to save costs is simply a lie.. if not libel.
Note: I will NOT discuss that Q1-production issue with you. You are very much aware of Tesla's official announcement about the short production stop. IMHO TMC moderator should remove that part of your comment.

Edit : MMD, thanks for reminding me about just one more of the big advantages Tesla has. Reconfirmed my long term long position.

I could easily sort out Ford and GM's pension deficit problem. Simply sell $3bn of their current pension fund assets and reinvest those funds in $TSLA. In about 5 years they'll easily be able to cover the deficit with the huge profits they will make from that investment.
 
@ValueAnalyst, I appreciate your focus on Tesla's statement in the Q4 2016 letter that they expect to finalize the locations for Gigafactory 3, 4 and possibly 5 later this year. This is a very important statement and I don't think it was made casually. Together with announcements on the rough timeline for the Tesla Semi, Pickup and Roadster reveals it suggests to me that Tesla intends to continue to push forward very hard to implement Master Plan Part Deux and that it is likely to exceed the 1M in 2020 goal. I think Tesla/Elon are also trying to get investors comfortable with the idea that after the Model 3 launch they should expect rapid and possibly accelerating growt both in terms of volume and new product introductions. I have long believed the 1M vehicle in 2020 goal was conservative and that Tesla hoped to exceed it, and these statements tend to confirm that belief in my mind.

What I am less clear about is your suggestion that Tesla will necessarily build GF 3, 4 and possibly 5 immediately after announcing the locations, and that they will complete production of the full facilities on a rapid timeline. Building 3-4 GFs simultaneously (including ongoing work on GF1) would require a fairly massive capital investment, even assuming favorable arrangements with local governments and Panasonic or other partners.

It seems more likely to me that they will stage the build-out of the GFs in some fashion rather than go full speed ahead with all 3-4. In this scenario, they would exceed 1M vehicles delivered in 2020, but would not hit your 4M vehicle figure until about 2-3 years later. I assume Tesla Semi and Pickup will place significant demands on GF battery production by 2020, which also factors into the equation.

Would be interested in your thoughts about this.
 
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@ValueAnalyst, I appreciate your focus on Tesla's statement in the Q4 2016 letter that they expect to finalize the locations for Gigafactory 3, 4 and possibly 5 later this year. This is a very important statement and I don't think it was made casually. Together with announcements on the rough timeline for the Tesla Semi, Pickup and Roadster reveals it suggests to me that Tesla intends to continue to push forward very hard to implement Master Plan Part Deux and that it is likely to exceed the 1M in 2020 goal, and wants to start getting investors comfortable with the idea that after the Model 3 launch they should expect rapid and possibly accelerating growth. I have long believed the 1M vehicle in 2020 goal was conservative and that Tesla hoped to exceed it, and these statements tend to confirm that belief in my mind.

What I am less clear about is your suggestion that Tesla will necessarily build GF 3, 4 and possibly 5 immediately after announcing the locations, and that they will complete production of the full facilities on a rapid timeline. Building 3-4 GFs simultaneously (including ongoing work on GF1) would require a fairly massive capital investment, even assuming favorable arrangements with local governments and Panasonic or other partners.

It seems more likely to me that they will stage the build-out of the GFs in some fashion rather than go full speed ahead with all 3-4. In this scenario, they would exceed 1M vehicles delivered in 2020, but would not hit your 4M vehicle figure until about 2-3 years later. I assume Tesla Semi and Pickup will place significant demands on GF battery production by 2020, which also factors into the equation.

Thank you for challenging me with a reasonable argument. I highly appreciate it as this helps me tremendously.

The following are the reasons why I see Tesla moving forward simultaneously and quickly on "Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5."

1. Looking at investing (and other aspects of life) through a Game Theory lens has helped me tremendously over the years. Why would Tesla announce locations for possibly three additional Gigafactories at the same time, if they did not have the intention to break ground shortly thereafter (within three months as they did with GF1) and build all three simultaneously? Bears can say maybe Elon is trying to manipulate the stock, but I don't see that in his history despite his tweets and for the following reasons.

2. The demand is there (skip this paragraph if you agree). Tesla has captured one-third of the US luxury sedan market in four years, extremely quickly in terms of automotive industry timelines. Model X is on track to achieve that market share level in less than two years! I do not see a reason why the Model 3 cannot achieve the same level, other than production capacity. Even if the Model 3 eventually ends up with one-tenth of the market share the Model S/X achieved with smaller number of superchargers, smaller number of service centers, and lower brand awareness than what Tesla enjoys today, Tesla will not be able to meet demand, even with five Gigafactories. I hope we agree that demand is not the limiting factor for my prediction to be realized.

3. You raise a good point about capex needs to achieve such a goal, but if one actually thinks about how much capital is needed, and compares that to the benefits, one quickly realizes that (given that demand is there) Tesla should be building as many Gigafactories as possible. Basically, starting a Gigafactory costs a few hundred million dollars and a few billion over the full course of the project with majority of the cost being in tooling (so towards the end of the construction project). So the cost of starting all three simultaneously would be maybe a billion dollars. If the Model 3 ramp-up goes smoothly, as it seems to be so far, and Tesla produces 1 million cars over the next ~20 months, which I think is a strong possibility, that's $50B+ of revenue. Even if the gross margin is ~15% in earlier days of the Model 3 ramp up, that's many more billions than what it would take to start the Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5. Further, I expect Tesla to now be able to take on non-dilutive corporate debt as its revenue multiplies in the next 12 months. This simple back-of-the-envelope calculation looks even brighter for Tesla beyond 2018 as the Model 3 production line (and gross margin) reaches maturity. Much much brighter.

4. So we established that the demand is there and that the cap-ex needs in the early construction stages are very manageable with an even brighter outlook in later years. What is the benefit? The benefits are two-fold: 1) the acceleration of production capacity pulls forward tens of billions of cash flow, and to any trained eye that has looked at discounted cash flow models (and I've worked on hundreds), such a move increases the Enterprise Value of a company tremendously. More importantly, if Tesla can take market share from incumbents quickly, the probability of ICE car manufacturers going bankrupt before they can build their own Gigafactories (which is a must to compete with Tesla) increases. Again, this is another example where thinking strategically (i.e. game theory) is more helpful than just purely in numbers.

5. Finally note that the full build-out of Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5 is not needed to realize my forecast of 4 million cars in 2020. With GF1 capacity raised to 1.5 million cars (triple of original forecast just two years ago), Elon/Tesla's history of pushing limits by multiple times and "order of magnitude" improvements version after version, recent creation of Tesla Advanced Automation, Elon's repeated comments around becoming the best manufacturer in the world, I believe even a partial build-out of the three additional gigafactories three years into the construction projects would be enough to achieve the 4 million car total capacity among the four Gigafactories.

I hope this is helpful. Please keep challenging me with thoughtful reasoning. I very much appreciate it.
 
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@ValueAnalyst Does anyone have any idea why Elon was in China this week meeting with the vice premier? Could it be to finalize details for a gigafactory in China?

Given the lead times for a gigafactory and the lower initial capital costs, it would not be out of character for Elon to talk about the final locations of gigafactory 3,4,5 in the earnings. Gives them a few months to finalize details, arrange construction plans and when M3 starts rolling to volume in Q3 or Q4 generating cashflow, they can go full speed ahead with construction.

As for China, some posters in the past note the risk of IP infringement, etc as reasons to not build a gigafactory in China. After some thought, I don't think Elon cares. Even if another chinese company starts copying the designs and factory, Tesla still has moats in the charging infrastructure and most importantly software. And China is becoming one of the bigger players for EVs. Getting in there is important for Tesla AND it will accelerate the adoption of EVs even more, which is their goal!

So I'm personally very looking forward to next week's earnings. :D
 
@ValueAnalyst Does anyone have any idea why Elon was in China this week meeting with the vice premier? Could it be to finalize details for a gigafactory in China?

Given the lead times for a gigafactory and the lower initial capital costs, it would not be out of character for Elon to talk about the final locations of gigafactory 3,4,5 in the earnings. Gives them a few months to finalize details, arrange construction plans and when M3 starts rolling to volume in Q3 or Q4 generating cashflow, they can go full speed ahead with construction.

As for China, some posters in the past note the risk of IP infringement, etc as reasons to not build a gigafactory in China. After some thought, I don't think Elon cares. Even if another chinese company starts copying the designs and factory, Tesla still has moats in the charging infrastructure and most importantly software. And China is becoming one of the bigger players for EVs. Getting in there is important for Tesla AND it will accelerate the adoption of EVs even more, which is their goal!

So I'm personally very looking forward to next week's earnings. :D

I agree with everything you said.

I expect Gigafactories 3 and 4 to be in Europe and China. Gigafactory 5 may be in the United States, maybe in West Virginia to employ the coal workforce that the EV/solar is displacing. That would be a very important move for Tesla.
 
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Thank you for challenging me with a reasonable argument. I highly appreciate it as this helps me tremendously.

The following are the reasons why I see Tesla moving forward simultaneously and quickly on "Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5."

1. Looking at investing (and other aspects of life) through a Game Theory lens has helped me tremendously over the years. Why would Tesla announce locations for possibly three additional Gigafactories at the same time, if they did not have the intention to break ground shortly thereafter (within three months as they did with GF1) and build all three simultaneously? Bears can say maybe Elon is trying to manipulate the stock, but I don't see that in his history despite his tweets and for the following reasons.

2. The demand is there (skip this paragraph if you agree). Tesla has captured one-third of the US luxury sedan market in four years, extremely quickly in terms of automotive industry timelines. Model X is on track to achieve that market share level in less than two years! I do not see a reason why the Model 3 cannot achieve the same level, other than production capacity. Even if the Model 3 eventually ends up with one-tenth of the market share the Model S/X achieved with smaller number of superchargers, smaller number of service centers, and lower brand awareness than what Tesla enjoys today, Tesla will not be able to meet demand, even with five Gigafactories. I hope we agree that demand is not the limiting factor for my prediction to be realized.

3. You raise a good point about capex needs to achieve such a goal, but if one actually thinks about how much capital is needed, and compares that to the benefits, one quickly realizes that (given that demand is there) Tesla should be building as many Gigafactories as possible. Basically, starting a Gigafactory costs a few hundred million dollars and a few billion over the full course of the project with majority of the cost being in tooling (so towards the end of the construction project). So the cost of starting all three simultaneously would be maybe a billion dollars. If the Model 3 ramp-up goes smoothly, as it seems to be so far, and Tesla produces 1 million cars over the next ~20 months, which I think is a strong possibility, that's $50B+ of revenue. Even if the gross margin is ~15% in earlier days of the Model 3 ramp up, that's many more billions than what it would take to start the Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5. Further, I expect Tesla to now be able to take on non-dilutive corporate debt as its revenue multiplies in the next 12 months. This simple back-of-the-envelope calculation looks even brighter for Tesla beyond 2018 as the Model 3 production line (and gross margin) reaches maturity. Much much brighter.

4. So we established that the demand is there and that the cap-ex needs in the first construction stages are very manageable with an even brighter outlook in later years. What is the benefit? The benefits are two-fold: 1) the acceleration of production capacity pulls forward tens of billions of cash flow, and to any trained eye that has looked at discounted cash flow models (and I've worked on hundreds), such a move increases the Enterprise Value of a company tremendously. More importantly, if Tesla can take market share from incumbents quickly, the probability of ICE car manufacturers going bankrupt before they can build their own Gigafactories (which is a must to compete with Tesla) increases. Again, this is another example where thinking strategically (i.e. game theory) is more helpful than just purely in numbers.

5. Finally note that the full build-out of Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5 is not needed to realize my forecast of 4 million cars in 2020. With GF1 capacity raised to 1.5 million cars (triple of original forecast just two years ago), Elon/Tesla's of pushing limits by multiple times and "order of magnitude" improvements version after version, the recent creation of Tesla Advanced Automation, Elon's repeated comments around becoming the best manufacturer in the world, I believe even a partial build-out of the three additional gigafactories three years into the construction projects would be enough to achieve the 4 million car total capacity among the four Gigafactories.

I hope this is helpful. Please keep challenging me with thoughtful reasoning. I very much appreciate it.

What you're missing is that new gigafactories will be manufacturing vehicles as well. So you can't assume that they'll have the same battery production capacity as GF1. We don't really have an idea on the capacity of the new gigafactories until Tesla shares more details on this.
 
If the Model 3 ramp-up goes smoothly, as it seems to be so far, and Tesla produces 1 million cars over the next ~20 months, which I think is a strong possibility, that's $50B+ of revenue. Even if the gross margin is ~15% in earlier days of the Model 3 ramp up, that's many more billions that what it would take to start the Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5.

@ValueAnalyst , I enjoy reading your highly informed opinions and agree many of times.

That said, I do believe the statement above is too optimistic.

Glossing over the fact that producing 1 million cars over the next 20 months is improbable, you cannot consider a 15% gross margin in the early days of Model 3 production.

Elon talked about this in the Q4 2016 ER I believe. 25% gross margin is the goal at full production. Early days gross margin however will be zero or neglectible. Reaching 15% will only happen late 2018 at the earliest IMHO.

So I do agree with your reasoning regarding the (financing of the) construction of GF 3,4 and 5, but I believe your timeline to be a little too optimistic.
 
@ValueAnalyst , I enjoy reading your highly informed opinions and agree many of times.

That said, I do believe the statement above is too optimistic.

Glossing over the fact that producing 1 million cars over the next 20 months is improbable, you cannot consider a 15% gross margin in the early days of Model 3 production.

Elon talked about this in the Q4 2016 ER I believe. 25% gross margin is the goal at full production. Early days gross margin however will be zero or neglectible. Reaching 15% will only happen late 2018 at the earliest IMHO.

So I do agree with your reasoning regarding the (financing of the) construction of GF 3,4 and 5, but I believe your timeline to be a little too optimistic.

Well, given that the Model S/X achieved more than 20% gross margins at ~500 cars/week level, and that Tesla is aiming to achieve thousands of Model 3's per week by 4Q17, why do you predict it will take another full year after that for the Model 3 to get to even 15% gross margin?

If anything, I would think that the Model 3 will get to 15-20% gross margin level even quicker than Model S/X due to the quicker ramp-up as well as the pricing power that Tesla now enjoys vs. in its earlier years.
 
What you're missing is that new gigafactories will be manufacturing vehicles as well. So you can't assume that they'll have the same battery production capacity as GF1. We don't really have an idea on the capacity of the new gigafactories until Tesla shares more details on this.

I agree that this is the weakest link in my argument. I will be listening carefully for any commentary around the size/capacity of the additional Gigafactories.

Having said that, I still think the experience of having built GF1, the flexibility that comes with introducing design innovations and automation to the next-gen Gigafactories from ground-up, and better access to capital going forward will overwhelm any downside to manufacturing cars and batteries under one roof, which actually can be a positive on its own.
 
So, I was a bit optimistic when I posted about the 467 robots versus the 160 in the Fremont factory. I guess that 160 number was in 2013. The Model X line has 542 robots on its production line.

As a side-note, some people are discussing that if these robots haven't been installed yet, how is it that the M3 CR cars were made using production hardware? They probably ran them on the MS or MX line, testing out the simulated runs of the hardware that would be the same using different programs, allowing them to make rough adjustments early on. The changes then can be applied to the equipment that is being installed now.
 
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