2018 Leaf vs Model 3

[SlicedBr3ad]

To those here buying leaf in US.

Rhetorical question, why are you on this forum?

Real question, would you buy leaf 2 without cash incentives? Asking because I'd buy m3 even without incentives.

I'm hearing some talk how Nissan sells more electric yet Tesla is set to run out of incentives first?!

 

[scaesare]

Thank you again for proving this simple point. ...It IS an absolute, period.

Well my post didn't, and it's not... .but OK, certainly you feel that way.

 

[EpiKAC]

Well my post didn't, and it's not... .but OK, certainly you feel that way.

You did, but that's OK as well...

The problem of using absolutes like you do in your assertion for things that are subjective topics is that... well... they're subjective.

 

[Electroman]

A peppy 0-60 in 8.9 seconds

gives a new definition for the word 'peppy'

 

[SageBrush]

a great number of people will conclude "it's no contest", but there exists a segment of people who will disagree.

A few people will be tempted by the "low" price that includes an option or two they cannot afford in the Model 3.

And in 3-4 years when their 150 mile range has tanked and the car can no longer serve all the duties they expected to use it for, they will be out spending money again.

You say that shows the cars are competitive; I say only to an uninformed consumer.

 

[scaesare]

A few people will be tempted by the "low" price that includes an option or two they cannot afford in the Model 3.

And in 3-4 years when their 150 mile range has tanked and the car can no longer serve all the duties they expected to use it for, they will be out spending money again.

You say that shows the cars are competitive; I say only to an uninformed consumer.

@SageBrush , clearly you are wrong. @EpiKAC has spoken, and his One True View has been dispensed.

Just because there are more fronts in which the cars are NOT in the same class in many people's minds, that is of no concern. Our opinion on the matter is immaterial.

Please join me in repenting.

 

[dhanson865]

The Tesla battery starts out at 220k miles with a Tesla TMS; the Leaf starts out with ~ 150 miles and gets a passive temperature box

Why are you saying 220k miles? I know you can't be saying 220,000 miles what is the k for?

 

[EpiKAC]

@SageBrush , clearly you are wrong. @EpiKAC has spoken, and his One True View has been dispensed.

Just because there are more fronts in which the cars are NOT in the same class in many people's minds, that is of no concern. Our opinion on the matter is immaterial.

Please join me in repenting.

I accept your forgiveness. And that of @SageBrush as well. (For as he said, an "uninformed consumer" is still a consumer. )

 

[SageBrush]

Why are you saying 220k miles? I know you can't be saying 220,000 miles what is the k for?

Cross out the k

 

[SageBrush]

And that of @SageBrush as well.

Sorry, no carrot for you.

I have both a Prius Prime and a LEAF, cars I bought instead of a Model S.
I can describe my reasons but I would never suggest they are in the same class as a Model S.

I suppose you could say that they successfully competed for my money, but so did Thai food yesterday. You may be tempted to ignore this by saying Thai food is not a car, but the LEAF2 is not an ICE replacement unless it is limited to commuter duties (and even then, maybe not after a couple of years.)

This is my reason for saying the LEAF2 is not a Model 3 competitor: it simply cannot serve the array of functions that are commonly asked of any generic car for the 10+ years the market demands of a $20+ car. Want a NEV ? Buy a used 24 kWh LEAF.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

gives a new definition for the word 'peppy'

adjective, peppier, peppiest. Informal.
1.
energetic; vigorous; lively.


My Gen 1 Volt has the same 0-60 time and nobody ever criticized it for being slow.

The best-selling vehicles don't have much faster acceleration and they lack the responsiveness that EVs have.
So, yes, peppy.

 

[scaesare]

I accept your forgiveness.

Oh, ok. You are forgiven then.

 

[dhanson865]

Yeah, they're so stupid that they've sold millions of non-Tesla EVs with no access to the Supercharger network.

Only if you don't understand the difference between a Plug in Hybrid and an EV would that statement be true.

There are millions of cars that can use a J1772 plug but almost half of them wouldn't be an EV because they have a gas tank and a gas engine.

See https://www.iea.org/media/topics/transport/Global_EV_Outlook_2017_Leaflet.pdf for the actual graphs.

They do show EVs world wide topping 1 million but that includes over 200,000 Teslas so once you take the number down to non-Tesla EVs there are NOT millions in that category.

 

[SageBrush]

My Gen 1 Volt has the same 0-60 time and nobody ever criticized it for being slow.

I do.

Now you consider it a dog, right ?

 

[techmaven]

So the Nissan ProPilot Assist is currently powered by the Mobileye EyeQ3 chip. That's the same chip used in Tesla's Autopilot 1 and the Mercedes DrivePilot in the E-class. To review, read this if you haven't already:

The War For Autonomous Driving: 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class VS. 2017 Tesla Model S

I expect that the Nissan version likely works close to the Mercedes implementation. The early reviews and first driving impressions from across a swath of journalists seems to indicate that is more competent that most ADAS Level 2 implementations thus far which places it roughly in the same ballpark as the initial versions of Autopilot 1 software and the E-class DrivePilot. There are some interesting caveats though... like it will only apply 40% of total braking force. This also points to a lack of competent journalists to cover the various permutations of ADAS that are shipping. For some of these writers, it seems the ProPilot is the first ADAS system they've driven... which seems to border on incompetence for an automotive journalist in 2017.

Anyways... better ADAS is always a good thing. Clearly there aren't enough people using even traffic aware cruise control due to the massive gaps I see every time I drive in traffic.

 

[McRat]

The smug episode was in 2006 and had the Gen 2 Prius. By the time it aired sales were already over 100,000 per year. Also, it's sad, but the thing people miss about the smug episode (particuarly those who tend to refer to it) is that South Park was attacking people both for self-righteous pseudo-environmentalism and also for not caring.

The 0-60 in 8.9 seconds is the same as the Gen 1 Volt which has never been considered to be a poor performer. Devil will be in the details.

Remember that performance of US vehicles is greater than average. The same cars purchased in the USA are often sold elsewhere with smaller engines. A peppy 0-60 in 8.9 seconds will compare well in other markets.

The Camry sold far more at about the same price.
The Corolla sold far more at a lower price.

If the Prius was a superior car or superior value, it probably would have outsold its brethren.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

So the Nissan ProPilot Assist is currently powered by the Mobileye EyeQ3 chip. That's the same chip used in Tesla's Autopilot 1 and the Mercedes DrivePilot in the E-class. To review, read this if you haven't already:

The War For Autonomous Driving: 2017 Mercedes-Benz E-Class VS. 2017 Tesla Model S

I expect that the Nissan version likely works close to the Mercedes implementation. The early reviews and first driving impressions from across a swath of journalists seems to indicate that is more competent that most ADAS Level 2 implementations thus far which places it roughly in the same ballpark as the initial versions of Autopilot 1 software and the E-class DrivePilot. There are some interesting caveats though... like it will only apply 40% of total braking force. This also points to a lack of competent journalists to cover the various permutations of ADAS that are shipping. For some of these writers, it seems the ProPilot is the first ADAS system they've driven... which seems to border on incompetence for an automotive journalist in 2017.

Anyways... better ADAS is always a good thing. Clearly there aren't enough people using even traffic aware cruise control due to the massive gaps I see every time I drive in traffic.

Thank you for sharing this article. After reading it, I'm questioning your statement that it is close to ap1. May be you meant when ap1 was just enabled and completely inadequate. Anyway, motor trend also said leaf 2 pro pilot was inadequate. I'm actually surprised they're using eyeq3 so poorly. At no time I would say these technologies are close to autopilot auto steer. Maybe tacc but that is a level 1 technology by itself.

 

[techmaven]

Thank you for sharing this article. After reading it, I'm questioning your statement that it is close to ap1. May be you meant when ap1 was just enabled and completely inadequate. Anyway, motor trend also said leaf 2 pro pilot was inadequate. I'm actually surprised they're using eyeq3 so poorly. At no time I would say these technologies are close to autopilot auto steer. Maybe tacc but that is a level 1 technology by itself.

Yup... I meant the very early software revs on AP1, when things were very dicey. It is clear that there is a lot of additional software and tuning that goes on above the EyeQ3 chip. There is a wide range of behavior from that one chip as you can see comparing DrivePilot and other EyeQ3 implementations to Autopilot.

 

[dhanson865]

The Camry sold far more at about the same price.
The Corolla sold far more at a lower price.

If the Prius was a superior car or superior value, it probably would have outsold its brethren.

From 2006 to 2016 from the Wikipedia worldwide sales numbers

Corolla 5.1M to Camry 4.6M to Prius 3.5M

but the Peak sales year for each is

Corolla 575K (2008)
Prius 509K (2010)
Camry 473K (2007)

and focusing on 2010 gives us

Prius 509K
Corolla 397K
Camry 365K

So at it's peak the Prius did outsell the Camry and Corolla.

 

[pk-sd]

To those here buying leaf in US.

I'm hearing some talk how Nissan sells more electric yet Tesla is set to run out of incentives first?!

I think majority of the Tesla's sales are in the US so they will hit that number faster than Nissan which sells globally and has higher overall sales.