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2018 Leaf vs Model 3

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Prius Prime ?
I have one while waiting for a Model 3 and think is is outstanding value.
We'll probably continue rolling with the ILX that we bought after the end of a 3-year lease last year until we get the email notification from Tesla to configure our 3, hopefully sometime between Jan-Mar 2018 (or sooner).

Would sure be great if Tesla comes up with a Model 3 lease option before then.
 
For the masses who might buy the Model 3 if they can have what they need from a car, and can have it relatively short notice, Leaf might well be an attractive option.
Not every EV buy is the $50K customer who expects a decked out Model 3. Some want an EV that does the job, and Leaf does it, most days of the year. Certainly as a second car.

I know an interim manager type who drives the original Leaf. He's just prudent with expenditures (2 kids and a townhouse) and likes it being greener.
 
The idea that the Leaf is not a Model 3 competitor has been entirely disproven in this thread alone. The fact that on a TESLA fan forum that the discussion isn't unanimous pretty much ends all debate right there. The Leaf IS a Model 3 competitor and a very good one at it.

Personally I do not believe people cross-shop BMW 3 series and Corolla. Loaded up Camry/Avalon maybe, not Corolla.

This is THE perfect example. Nobody in their right mind would consider the Corolla as premium a car as the BMW 3 series. But the fact remains this EXACT example was one I was debating for my first new car out of college. The Corolla was going to give me a very established reliable BASIC transportation that I could afford to add a few toys to, while paying a bit more for the base model BMW 3 would give me a better ride and the premium image. But at the end of the day, while I was comparing the pros and cons of both, I went with the Corolla. Cost definitely played a factor, so did BMW's reliability at the time. There were other considerations as well. Each person will have their own.

And today I am sure cost and reliability will still be factors when MANY people choose the Leaf over the Model 3 they were considering. People who may have never heard of this forum. To think that just because one car costs more than another doesn't mean it's not a competitor is naive, and to think Tesla is the ONLY option for a good EV borders on crazy.

To wrap this up, the Leaf looks to be a great car, even as it clearly has warts. So does the Bolt. And the Kia. And the BMW i3. And yes, even the Model 3 has its share of warts. But since we're all on this forum, it's pretty clear that among many worthy competitors, we've settled on the Model 3 for ourselves. But for those people who don't choose a Tesla, I'm thrilled they are going with a competing EV over an ICE. You all should be as well.
 
Fuel savings aren't really a factor favoring the 3 for us since we drive 5-6k mainly city miles per year and our cheapest quote for having a 14-50 outlet installed for charging has been about $1,000. Not sure what our kwh costs to charge would be, but my last electric bill shows 2 different summer residential energy charges of 96kwh .0712 & 600kwh x .1307 kwh.
Seattle is tiered such that your first "block" of electricity is sold to you for below cost (your first 96kWh in summer) this is intended for "essential needs" the second (and final) block is more sold at a profit and is what you're charged for all energy used after you've used up your first block. FYI, the size of your first block is ~60% bigger in winter (helps those with electric heat).

Since your potential EV will increase energy use,and you're already WELL into your second block, you should assume the $0.13 per kWh is the effective rate for EV charging.

To those not familiar with the area who are about to suggest ToU plans, EV plans, etc., there are no options for such things with Seattle City Light until you fall into the Large General Service category needing >1MW service which is really, really far from residential power rates.

TLDR; you will pay ~13 cents/kWh
 
For the masses who might buy the Model 3 if they can have what they need from a car, and can have it relatively short notice, Leaf might well be an attractive option.
Not every EV buy is the $50K customer who expects a decked out Model 3. Some want an EV that does the job, and Leaf does it, most days of the year. Certainly as a second car.

I know an interim manager type who drives the original Leaf. He's just prudent with expenditures (2 kids and a townhouse) and likes it being greener.
Would you say it's fair to call the original Leaf a Model S competitor?
 
The idea that the Leaf is not a Model 3 competitor has been entirely disproven in this thread alone. The fact that on a TESLA fan forum that the discussion isn't unanimous pretty much ends all debate right there. The Leaf IS a Model 3 competitor and a very good one at it.



This is THE perfect example. Nobody in their right mind would consider the Corolla as premium a car as the BMW 3 series. But the fact remains this EXACT example was one I was debating for my first new car out of college. The Corolla was going to give me a very established reliable BASIC transportation that I could afford to add a few toys to, while paying a bit more for the base model BMW 3 would give me a better ride and the premium image. But at the end of the day, while I was comparing the pros and cons of both, I went with the Corolla. Cost definitely played a factor, so did BMW's reliability at the time. There were other considerations as well. Each person will have their own.

And today I am sure cost and reliability will still be factors when MANY people choose the Leaf over the Model 3 they were considering. People who may have never heard of this forum. To think that just because one car costs more than another doesn't mean it's not a competitor is naive, and to think Tesla is the ONLY option for a good EV borders on crazy.

To wrap this up, the Leaf looks to be a great car, even as it clearly has warts. So does the Bolt. And the Kia. And the BMW i3. And yes, even the Model 3 has its share of warts. But since we're all on this forum, it's pretty clear that among many worthy competitors, we've settled on the Model 3 for ourselves. But for those people who don't choose a Tesla, I'm thrilled they are going with a competing EV over an ICE. You all should be as well.
Agree. I have a ReachNow membership (BMW's car-share service) so I will occasionally drive a 330i, x1, i3, or Mini to or from work on rare days that my schedule just doesn't allow for biking, and haven't found either the BMWs to be that much better of a driving experience over my Acura. I couldn't imagine buying a BMW over an Acura or Honda, but that's just me.
 
Seattle is tiered such that your first "block" of electricity is sold to you for below cost (your first 96kWh in summer) this is intended for "essential needs" the second (and final) block is more sold at a profit and is what you're charged for all energy used after you've used up your first block. FYI, the size of your first block is ~60% bigger in winter (helps those with electric heat).

Since your potential EV will increase energy use,and you're already WELL into your second block, you should assume the $0.13 per kWh is the effective rate for EV charging.

To those not familiar with the area who are about to suggest ToU plans, EV plans, etc., there are no options for such things with Seattle City Light until you fall into the Large General Service category needing >1MW service which is really, really far from residential power rates.

TLDR; you will pay ~13 cents/kWh
Thanks, I really appreciate the analysis and education! Glad that our townhouse heating is gas/radiant floors.
 
Would you say it's fair to call the original Leaf a Model S competitor?
Competitor is a broad concept.
They're not in the same price range, within traditional automotive culture, cars tend to be put in small boxes within which buyer then get to have a choice.
Since I'm properly aware of Model S, ICE cars are simply off the table for my next car. Disqualified.

For someone with a 6-figure annual salary in 2012, and a true green heart (not only when it suits them 100% without downsides or cost impact), a Model S was not a financial hurdle. But it would HAVE to be electric once aware of it all its glory, right? Oh wow, there are multiple BEV"s on the market now? Even that Leaf seems like it would do the job just fine. get me to work in decent comfort, soft electric buzz, always full battery in te morning. What's not to love? The Model S60 costs about the same as my gas guzzler which I got before I awoke. That's got to go. But do I NEED to spend $70,000? Let's make a statement. I'll get the Leaf.

This didn't happen very often, but it will have happened. My neighbor who drives a Leaf to his fancy interim gigs, surely could afford a Model S. He just doesn't spend all he can on cars. He invests, has a summer house and spoils the kids.

If there are just 2 cars that will do, they are sort of competitors, and the liekly choice will not always win. Perhaps my weekend car is a GT-R...
 
What does a SL Leaf 2 have that a Model 3 base doesn't have?
  • Leather-appointed seats
  • Premium Audio
  • High Beam Assist
  • Intelligent Lane Intervention
  • ProPILOT™ Assist
  • Android Auto
  • Apple CarPlay
  • Intelligent Around View® Monitor
The problem with your comparo is that an SV LEAF is in no way close to the value of a $46k Tesla.
Value is in the eye of the beholder. If you don't plan on going more than 120 miles roundtrip then you don't really need the longer range and SC network.

The only thing you know about ProPilot is that it is speed limited to 62 mph. So I would tell you to take it for some testing but alas ... it is a work in progress behind Tesla and without OTA updates.
Tesla AP2 was limited to 65 MPH just a few months ago and is still a WIP. And you're assuming there will be no ability to get updates for ProPILOT. Again, value is in the eye of the beholder. If you drive mostly city and do little highway driving then AP2 isn't necessarily any better.

I'm not saying that the Model 3 w/ Premium Package and AP isn't a better overall car than the loaded Nissan Leaf. There are plenty of other reasons beyond what you mentioned that the Model 3 is better. But for many the $10K extra is a LOT of money and does not justify the extra price for their needs.
 
I mean you can definitely get around the limitation of not having a supercharging network. But once you are used to being able to charge 170 miles per half hour, anything else in comparison will seem unacceptable.

I have had a Model S 75D for a year. It maxes out at 96 kW charging (larger batteries will apparently take a higher power charge). That rate, of course, drops significantly after the battery is 1/2 full.

My girlfriend remains irked by the relative inconvenience of supercharging compared to fuelling an ICE car (but she is reasonably tolerant because she cares about the planet and indulges my love of the Tesla). She accurately points out that it's not just the slightly longer stops to charge, and not even just the slightly more frequent stops (a reasonably fuel efficient ICE can go much farther than 400 km on a tank of gas).

In addition to those issues, the supercharger network requires you to stop at Tesla's chosen waypoints. In the freedom of the modern gasoline station infrastructure, you can stop nearly anywhere for gas. That means, when your 6 year old needs to eat or use the bathroom, you must stop, even if there is no supercharger near. With an ICE car, though, there would probably be a gas station nearby, so your stop would not be "wasted". (Even) With a Tesla, sometimes mandatory stops are wasted stops because you can't supercharge where you happen to be when the child gets car sick or needs to eat or demands to go to some road side amusement so you need to stop AGAIN to charge, even if you just spent 40 minutes at a restaurant feeding the child.

But, again, my girlfriend tolerates these legitimate weaknesses in road tripping with a Tesla compared to an ICE car.

I'm a huge fan boy. Put down a deposit on a Model 3 on release day then got unsold to a Model S. I have watched the company for years (pre-Model S) and have owned 1 share of TSLA as a show of support since 2012. I love to road trip and love it even more in the Model S just because supercharging is so damn cool.

But even I have to say that anything less than the kW speed and frequency of superchargers is PAINFUL for road tripping.

I just did my 3rd trip to the Canadian Maritimes. There are no superchargers in the 4 provinces east of Quebec or Maine but NB Power has put in CHAdeMO and CCS stations along the TransCanada Highway in NB.

That sounds nice in theory, but the most you will actually get from CHAdeMO in a Model S 75D is 42 kW charging. More realistically, you can expect 37 kW charging, even with an empty battery.

The difference between that unbearably slow rate and a Supercharger is night and day. Again, I'm very grateful to NB Power (and the people who put CHAdeMO in NS; and the Quebec Tesla Owners' Club for lending out CHAdeMO adapters), but I would not buy a car for road trips if it could not use superchargers. (Most of my road trips are to the US, Ontario, or Quebec.) It is just not a viable way to travel if you're driving more than 650 km in a day (500km in the winter). Adding 2+ hours to what should be barely more than a 5 hour trip is insane, even for a fan boy like me.

IMO, the non-converted are not going to accept that kind of compromise in return for something as trivial as having air to breathe and no apocalyptic droughts in the future.

tl;dr: Tesla has done the minimum necessary in terms of infrastructure and charging standards to get the masses on board. They could improve (and I believe will). EVERYONE else is lying when they claim they want to sell EVs. Every one of the traditional car companies is only in the compliance business, or else they are incredibly stupid, because no one will buy a car* that adds nearly 50% extra travel time on road trips.

(*Unless they are buying it as a second car, or are one of the converted like me, or are smart enough to know they don't NEED to take road trips or can rent/borrow when they do.)
 
tl;dr: Tesla has done the minimum necessary in terms of infrastructure and charging standards to get the masses on board. They could improve (and I believe will). EVERYONE else is lying when they claim they want to sell EVs. Every one of the traditional car companies is only in the compliance business, or else they are incredibly stupid, because no one will buy a car* that adds nearly 50% extra travel time on road trips.

Absolutely, although these days we have to look at the miles charged per unit of time instead of just kW due to the wider difference in efficiency.

This is the reason why the 2017 Chevy Bolt was not the vehicle that people thought it would be... it wasn't just a 200+ mile range BEV for under $40k, it's also a viable long distance charging infrastructure to go with it. It's still a strong effort, but it falls well short as a complete package.
 
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This is THE perfect example. Nobody in their right mind would consider the Corolla as premium a car as the BMW 3 series. But the fact remains this EXACT example was one I was debating for my first new car out of college. The Corolla was going to give me a very established reliable BASIC transportation that I could afford to add a few toys to, while paying a bit more for the base model BMW 3 would give me a better ride and the premium image. But at the end of the day, while I was comparing the pros and cons of both, I went with the Corolla. Cost definitely played a factor, so did BMW's reliability at the time. There were other considerations as well. Each person will have their own.

Using an outlier example to prove general population that BMW 3 is being cross shopped with Corolla is cherry picking.
 
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If you consider the Leaf with tax credit is almost 1/2 price (or less with Model 3 options that can be added) I'd say it's a pretty good competitor. "Only 150 miles" is still a pretty range and would probably serve most people just fine. I've been fine with my 75 mile Leaf for 99% of my driving. I think the main advantages the Model 3 has are better performance, Autopilot option and broader range of options in general. It can be basic transport all the way to higher sports car depending on how you option it. I'm not sure the Model 3 the same class of car really.
 
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So the launch of the 2018 Nissan Leaf was yesterday and the folks at Tesla must be very happy. It will have only 150 miles range! That makes it a non-competitor with the Model 3 except to a very small group of low milage commuters who can afford a second ICE car for weekend trips. Where as the Model 3 owners can probably do everything with just the one car. So Tesla is still supreme in technology and range! If they can just get their parts/repair problems worked out I will be back to buy a Tesla again.
This is a real win-win. The 2018 Leaf poses no competitive threat to the Model 3, but it will pull more drivers into the EV world, That may even pull more auto manufacturers into producing more mainstream EVs. That's good for all of us. I'm already seeing an explosion in EV charging stations (especially in California), and more fast-charging technology is being developed.
 
EVERYONE else is lying when they claim they want to sell EVs. Every one of the traditional car companies is only in the compliance business, or else they are incredibly stupid, because no one will buy a car* that adds nearly 50% extra travel time on road trips.
Yeah, they're so stupid that they've sold millions of non-Tesla EVs with no access to the Supercharger network. I guess they shouldn't even bother producing EVs for people who don't need to drive more than 120 miles on a charge. Next time they should consult you on what they should build since apparently you know what everyone wants. And apparently anything you don't like is just a "compliance" vehicle.

Who Is The World's Leading EV Maker? It's Not Tesla

This is the reason why the 2017 Chevy Bolt was not the vehicle that people thought it would be... it wasn't just a 200+ mile range BEV for under $40k, it's also a viable long distance charging infrastructure to go with it. It's still a strong effort, but it falls well short as a complete package.
Speak for yourself. Thousands of people are very satisfied with their Bolt and don't care about the charging infrastructure. I personally have a MS and have not used a Supercharger once. It means nothing to me.

If anything I would say the M3 is not what people thought it would be. More expensive and still unavailable.
 
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Speak for yourself. Thousands of people are very satisfied with their Bolt and don't care about the charging infrastructure. I personally have a MS and have not used a Supercharger once. It means nothing to me.

If anything I would say the M3 is not what people thought it would be. More expensive and still unavailable.

I didn't say that thousands of people aren't satisfied. That's not the point. Instead, the Chevy Bolt was hailed as a breakthrough or revolutionary vehicle. I think it isn't quite there.

In many areas of the U.S. and the world, the Chevy Bolt is still expensive or not yet available. And that's 10 months after initial shipments. We will see the availability and sales numbers of the Model 3 at the end of May 2018 and compare.
 
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