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2023 M3 RWD + Erange Tires = M3 Highland range?
- Thread starter DuncanM
- Start date
Below 60 mph almost all of the efficiency benefits would be due to the tires. Aero doesn't become the dominant factor until about 70 mph.
I have 235/45/18 Hankook iON EVO AS tires on my 2022 Model 3 Performance and I have done controlled testing around a 25 mile loop. The Hankooks were right at 6% more efficient than the Pirelli PZ4 tires I had on the car before on the same controlled loop test.
I am going to back to back compare a 2022 RWD Model 3 on 18" Aero wheels against my Model 3 Performance on 18" non Aero wheels tonight. It will be interesting to see how close I can come to the RWD efficiency with the Performance model.
fiehlsport
Tire Guy
I think the main thing with the Sailuns is that they are "no worse" than the original Michelin Primacys as far as efficiency goes. I'm 100% sure they are worse in things like wet braking, winter performance, and overall traction.
We have a set of ERange 205/55-16 on our Ioniq Electric, and the range has held steady at 153mi. The original Michelin Energy Savers when new were 151 or 153, I forget. It's definitely a fine tire, quiet, and comfortable. The eco focus definitely "works" and allows the car to get its stated range. As soon as we slap on winter tires, it drops.
But, I think it's unreasonable to think that a budget tire is going to beat the best tire manufacturer in the world here. Most people compare the Sailuns to the Michelins after the Michelins have already been used for 10, 20, 30,000 miles... etc. Of course the new ones are going to be quieter. It's important to compare test data when the tires are new vs. new, or used vs. used.
But if they are basically the same as the Michelins as an eco tire, that's a win for the Sailuns at half the price, as long as you aren't running them in a Winter climate or doing autobahn runs in the rain.
Of course, if there's data that proves my assumptions wrong, that's awesome for the Sailun... and would make it a no-brainer for a lot of people. I just would find it odd that a budget tire brand comes out of the woodwork with one of the best eco-focused tires on the market, out of nowhere. Until now, I only heard of Sailun through my tire wholesalers that offer the cheapest tires possible for those that just don't care.
We have a set of ERange 205/55-16 on our Ioniq Electric, and the range has held steady at 153mi. The original Michelin Energy Savers when new were 151 or 153, I forget. It's definitely a fine tire, quiet, and comfortable. The eco focus definitely "works" and allows the car to get its stated range. As soon as we slap on winter tires, it drops.
But, I think it's unreasonable to think that a budget tire is going to beat the best tire manufacturer in the world here. Most people compare the Sailuns to the Michelins after the Michelins have already been used for 10, 20, 30,000 miles... etc. Of course the new ones are going to be quieter. It's important to compare test data when the tires are new vs. new, or used vs. used.
But if they are basically the same as the Michelins as an eco tire, that's a win for the Sailuns at half the price, as long as you aren't running them in a Winter climate or doing autobahn runs in the rain.
Of course, if there's data that proves my assumptions wrong, that's awesome for the Sailun... and would make it a no-brainer for a lot of people. I just would find it odd that a budget tire brand comes out of the woodwork with one of the best eco-focused tires on the market, out of nowhere. Until now, I only heard of Sailun through my tire wholesalers that offer the cheapest tires possible for those that just don't care.
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You never know when you'll have to brake or turn unexpectedly. I'll stick with my summer PS4S's and winter X-Ice's knowing that I did all I could reasonably do(short of slowing down(!) or just staying at home all the time) to avoid running someone or something over
Just one $1000 deductible would pay for a full set of tires, and that's ignoring any insurance increase, inconvenience, and guilt for mowing down a pedestrian (not in that order, of course)There's a number of reviews online that look at these tires. I haven't noticed anything negative in terms of handling or braking distance. I have noticed the quieter, smoother ride. I have some test routes where I measured my efficiency but I haven't had the time or opportunity to do those routes yet (will take nearly a whole day of driving).
In 50 years of driving, I can honestly state than any accident I've been in was due to mine or the other driver's errors and not due to my choice of tires... I got rear ended once by a kid in a Porsche 911 and he had some really high end tires...they left long skid marks right up to my rear bumper.
Even cheap modern tires are far superior to old performance tires. The truth is that there aren’t gigantic performance differences between tires in the same class now. However, there definitely are some significant price differences.
I ran an 11.24 @ 119+ mph 1/4 mile on all season Hankook tires. Now, I fully acknowledge that a max performance summer tire would be far superior on a road course but I bet the Michelin PS4 AS wouldn’t be light years better than the Hankook iON EVO AS tires for most if not all performance specs.
I ran an 11.24 @ 119+ mph 1/4 mile on all season Hankook tires. Now, I fully acknowledge that a max performance summer tire would be far superior on a road course but I bet the Michelin PS4 AS wouldn’t be light years better than the Hankook iON EVO AS tires for most if not all performance specs.
fiehlsport
Tire Guy
The only way to judge braking distances and traction is through actual testing, back to back, like Tyre Reviews or Tire Rack do with their fleet of BMWs. No doubt the Sailuns will fall short - sometimes the wet braking distances are pretty horrid on Chinese/Taiwanese tires compared to even the most basic Hankook or Michelin. It's all in the compounds, and you do get what you pay for.
That said, 99% of drivers that use their cars for A-B transportation will never notice the difference between a premium tire, nor will my mother in law who rarely exceeds 35mph. There's certainly a market for these.
That said, 99% of drivers that use their cars for A-B transportation will never notice the difference between a premium tire, nor will my mother in law who rarely exceeds 35mph. There's certainly a market for these.
Your bias towards Chinese tires is quite surprising, haha. Chinese tires are nearly half the price of Michelin, and while they may not match the quality Michelin provides, they are more than adequate for everyday driving. No one is claiming that Chinese tires are superior to Michelin; they simply provide good value for everyday driving needs.
As seen on other threads the Hankook iON EVO AS also give a good efficiency improvement and are likely at least as good if not better than the Michelin MXM4 on other areas.
Hankook is now a premium tire maker with this one. The summer version equalled or slightly beat the Michelin Pilot Sport 5 (yes 5) summer on most performance measures while being significantly more efficient.
Hankook is now a premium tire maker with this one. The summer version equalled or slightly beat the Michelin Pilot Sport 5 (yes 5) summer on most performance measures while being significantly more efficient.
Excellent.
Please share the links so that we all can make logical decisions from the same set of data points.
I can.
I've avoided multiple accidents where my threshold / ABS breaking stopped my car within 1-2 feet of someone's mistake. Or when I was able to emergency maneuver into onto a shoulder with micro-seconds of a pickup truck that locked up its wheels plowing into and rear-ending a car that was right ahead of mine. Ambulances were called to assist the injured.
If I was on cheaper/lower-traction tires, there is zero doubt that my car's sheet metal would have been bent, and my bones would have been crunched. It would not have been my fault in any of the above situations, but an accident repair / insurance claim /hospital visit experience are not fun projects, regardless of whose fault it was.
That's entirely NOT true.
Observe any independent (e.g.: TireRack) comparison and the gap between even top-shelf tires.
The deltas are measured in seconds, not even tens of seconds. In full and multiple seconds.
Engineering matters.
Quality control matters.
Rubber chemistry matters.
My bias as against cheap-o no-brand tires, which tend to mostly come from China these days. A few still come from South Korea and the US (e.g.: whatever PepBoys "special" peddles these days).
Your brand are no-name rubbers from China. It is what it is.
If saving money on the only object that connects you and your car with the road is a priority for you - sure, go for it.
I find that to be a very misguided bargain, at best.
For myself, and anyone I care about, my strong recommendation is to buy the best tire with the best traction that you can find for your application.
Hankook makes a few good tires. I can't find any independent tests of low-resistance EV offerings from either Michelin or Hankook.
The only thing out there is TR's test of EV-Focused Ultra High Performance All-Season Tires in 2023. TR included Goodyear ElectricDrive GT and Pirelli P Zero All Season Plus Elect on Model 3 Performance in 2023 test. Pirelli won in 2023, just like it did over Goodyear in 2022.
More here:
a
Some basic facts:
"Michelin, Goodyear, Yokohama and Continental “they’re all there building tires in China” Mielko said, adding that Pirelli’s biggest factory is located there.
Proving the capability of his products Mielko said they do special drive events on racetracks. They invite customers, dealers and automotive journalists out to sample their tires and compare them back-to-back with other brands’ offerings. Making things as fair as possible he said “we buff the sidewall off – the branding’s gone.” All tests are done blind."
www.autoguide.com
"Michelin, Goodyear, Yokohama and Continental “they’re all there building tires in China” Mielko said, adding that Pirelli’s biggest factory is located there.
Proving the capability of his products Mielko said they do special drive events on racetracks. They invite customers, dealers and automotive journalists out to sample their tires and compare them back-to-back with other brands’ offerings. Making things as fair as possible he said “we buff the sidewall off – the branding’s gone.” All tests are done blind."
Should I Buy Tires Made in China?
Should you buy tires made in China? AutoGuide.com investigates.
www.autoguide.com
It isn't "Made in China" (when Michelin or Pirelli is doing it) but the market niches of the Chinese manufacturers work in.Some basic facts:
"Michelin, Goodyear, Yokohama and Continental “they’re all there building tires in China” Mielko said, adding that Pirelli’s biggest factory is located there.
Proving the capability of his products Mielko said they do special drive events on racetracks. They invite customers, dealers and automotive journalists out to sample their tires and compare them back-to-back with other brands’ offerings. Making things as fair as possible he said “we buff the sidewall off – the branding’s gone.” All tests are done blind."
Should I Buy Tires Made in China?
Should you buy tires made in China? AutoGuide.com investigates.
There is lots of invisible expensive technology inside---and it's easy to make a tire which looks the same and costs half as much, use old technology and old paid off factories. And people who dont have much money still need tires.
And there will be Chinese manufacturers moving up into the midrange if they arent already there. There is an information problem in that we don't know which of the dozens/hundreds of makers are just cheap junk and which ones are trying to improve significantly.
MasterC17
Active Member
Making the blanket statement that all tires made in China are bad tires isn't accurate, but there are absolutely big differences between tire manufacturers in China, and the product coming out of each factory. Ultimately, you get what you pay for, and cheap brand tires are undeniably worse than the high end manufacturers we're used to finding as original equipment.
Tyre Reviews and Tire Rack have done extensive testing on this subject. The numbers don't lie, and cheap tires are worse.
At the end of the day, your car only has FOUR points of contact with the road - the tires. It doesn't matter how fast your car is, how big the brakes are, how advanced the suspension tech is, etc, if you are using subpar tires - it all comes down to grip on the pavement. This is generally exacerbated in the wet, and you are more likely to get into an accident with yourself and others when using cheap tires.
I also find it highly unlikely that these Sailun's are MORE efficient than the Michelin MXM4's. Unfortunately, there's virtually no way to do a controlled test without using multiple cars and multiple sets of new tires. Every drive cycle is going to produce a different result. The best way to calculate it as an individual is over a large span of time, but even there's a lot of variables.
Tyre Reviews and Tire Rack have done extensive testing on this subject. The numbers don't lie, and cheap tires are worse.
At the end of the day, your car only has FOUR points of contact with the road - the tires. It doesn't matter how fast your car is, how big the brakes are, how advanced the suspension tech is, etc, if you are using subpar tires - it all comes down to grip on the pavement. This is generally exacerbated in the wet, and you are more likely to get into an accident with yourself and others when using cheap tires.
I also find it highly unlikely that these Sailun's are MORE efficient than the Michelin MXM4's. Unfortunately, there's virtually no way to do a controlled test without using multiple cars and multiple sets of new tires. Every drive cycle is going to produce a different result. The best way to calculate it as an individual is over a large span of time, but even there's a lot of variables.
This may be true, but keep in mind that their market in China alone is 1 BILLION people, apparently around 300 million cars(completely ignoring trucks).. Add to that another maybe 200 million within a few hundred miles of the China borders and it means maybe a half billion cars-only, or two billion car tires. It would be silly for these US/European(maybe not Yokohama(japanese)) manufacturers NOT to have a manufacturing facility in or near China.
I'm reminded of Bindeez - Wikipedia where 'aquadots' were being manufactured in China, but the manufacturer substituted a similar chemical for the one in the specification, presumably because it was cheaper/easier to obtain. As a result, a bunch of kids in the US and Australia were sickened. What happens when my batch of tires is made with the wrong vulcanizing agent, or the wrong temperature, or whatever, just to get them out the factory door cheaper and/or faster?
"Michelin tires are made in several U.S. cities, including Greenville and Lexington in South Carolina, Tuscaloosa in Alabama, and Ardmore in Oklahoma. Internationally, the company has manufacturing facilities in Clermont-Ferrand, France; Valladolid, Spain; and Shenyang, China, among other locations."
A little more of a search found me Where Are Your Tires Made? which clearly shows that not a single tire tested (from Michelin/Continental/Goodyear/Yokohama) was made in China. In fact, of the brands tested, only ONE of the 172 models tested was made in China. Notably there was a significant number from Vietnam and Korea, in a quick perusal of the manufacturers.
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