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3 day old import P85D crashed while using TACC

MTOman

Member
Oct 3, 2013
153
162
Greensboro, NC
Tesla doesn't claim it's system can bring you to a full stop. If you read back around the same place I linked, there are several accounts that Tesla will actually bring you to a full stop. It could be a CYA statement from them.

No need to be a Tesla fanboy, but the person can just RT*M. It's clearly stated there.


The OPs car might have done it too, if the car was functioning properly, who knows?



By reading the manual?

Most people don't just willy nilly drop 100k on a car without knowing approximately what it can and cannot do.

You're making a big assumption that most people read manuals just because you read them. If we're going to make a big assumption like that then I'm going to make a big assumption that most people that see a Suburu ad that shows it stopping to avoid a collision would assume a Tesla could do the same. However, according to the manual it cannot. So once again I ask, why not? If Suburu can do it in a $25k car why can't Tesla do it in a 100k+ car?

- - - Updated - - -

Subaru's wording is nearly identical to Tesla's, both in the disclaimer and in the feature description "Pre-Collision Braking helps you avoid or reduce frontal impacts by alerting you and applying full braking force in emergency situations."

I would not expect Subaru's implementation to work in all situations either, and I expect the OPs problem was due to applying the brakes themselves. It would be interesting to see Tesla reproduce the brick wall test in the video. I expect (but don't depend on!) it would pass.

Also: suggesting we'd be better off without a safety feature is kind of silly. That's like the old arguments about seatbelts and being safely thrown from a vehicle.

Actually, the wording is very different. Tesla makes no claim that it will apply full braking or that it will even attempt to come to a stop or avoid the collision. Here is what Tesla says about it in their manual (linked to above by Max) "When a frontal collision is considered unavoidable, Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to automatically apply the brakes to reduce the impact". Further, it states "When Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced the driving speed by 40 km/h (24 mph), the brakes are released. For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving at 90 km/h (56mph), it releases the brakes when the speed has been reduced to 50 km/h (31 mph)."

So, the MS is clearly not designed to come to a complete stop like the Suburu is. This isn't a matter of an implementation working in all situations, this is the simple fact that the MS isn't designed to avoid a wreck but simply reduce the impact, where as a Suburu is designed to prevent it by avoiding a collision. In a brick wall test, a MS would smash right into it and the Suburu would stop. This is what I can't figure out, how a car that costs 1/5 the price can prevent a wreck while the more expensive car only minimizes the impact. It seems like it should be the other way around!

Also, it's a very different argument about seat belts and something that takes control of the car away from you at critical moments. Seat belts can't make things worse by malfunctioning and making the car accelerate seconds before an impact as the OP's TACC/AEBS did. Also, you're taking what I said out of context. Remember, originally I said " It seems like something any six figure car should come with, especially one that bills itself as being technologically advanced." and then followed it up by saying "if the OPs experience with it is an example of how well it works you're probably better off without it". I stand by that statement - you can have the system that messes up and accelerates you before an accident, I'll stick to manually controlling my car :p
 

JohnSnowNW

Active Member
Feb 13, 2015
2,626
2,748
Minnesota
I stand by that statement - you can have the system that messes up and accelerates you before an accident, I'll stick to manually controlling my car :p

Of course, you're basing your opinion on the word of the owner who didn't bother to read his own manual. Not to mention that people's memories tend to be a bit fuzzy after an accident, something insurance companies are known to take advantage of.

I'll be willing to accept the possibility that the vehicle accelerated if it occurs to another owner, preferably one that took delivery of the vehicle through the proper channels, and who doesn't have financial incentive to blame the vehicles systems. Of course, this person probably wouldn't be using TACC where this situation might occur.
 

bmanke

Member
Mar 1, 2015
74
28
Chesapeake, VA
All the discussion about how it should or shouldn't work is irrelevant. The driver is ultimately in charge of the vehicle and is to act responsibly and do what is reasonable to avoid an accident. The cruise control is a driving aid. It is not self driving. I can't imagine sitting in my brand new car or any car for that matter and literally passively watching it crash into the car ahead of me without taking the appropriate action. This guy needs to take responsibility for what happened. Stating he is going to sue Tesla for his mistake sounds so American. Why take responsibility for your own screw up if you can blame someone else?
 

cswolfe

Member
Jul 20, 2015
56
18
Earth
I'm so appalled by "Kristoffs" comments, without reposting them, I wouldn't even know where to begin. No matter what AP or Tesla does, sorry to see that for now, we'll still have a group to apologize for Tesla and blame everybody but Tesla, who just put lethal software "beta" in the hands of people who are now doing things like driving AP cars from the back seat. Allowing AP on the roads before it's a bit more idiot proof (not the OP, the guys on youtube with 7.0) is going to set AP and autonomous driving back years, the first time some guy activates it against instructions in a blizzard around a school with black ice on the roads. If its somebody you care about killed, be sure to write the grieving parents and tell them Tesla did the right thing by putting beta AP softwares in cars and trusting humans not to turn it on when they've been told not to. Elon's comment was "It should not kill pedestrians. Hopefully." Fan boys can commence hate for my comments, for all I give an F. I drive a Tesla, I don't apologize for every idiotic comment by Elon or any dumb move putting fatal beta software on the roads after a screen that says "don't be naughty and turn this on when you shouldn't."
 
Last edited:

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,262
3,952
NE
If its somebody you care about killed, be sure to write the grieving parents and tell them Tesla did the right thing by putting beta AP softwares in cars and trusting humans not to turn it on when they've been told not to. Elon's comment was "It should not kill pedestrians. Hopefully."

On average 92 people die per DAY in the US alone in car related injuries. You should understand and accept honesty when you see it.
 

wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,655
11,388
Hickory, NC, USA
I'm so appalled by "Kristoffs" comments, without reposting them, I wouldn't even know where to begin. No matter what AP or Tesla does, sorry to see that for now, we'll still have a group to apologize for Tesla and blame everybody but Tesla, who just put lethal software "beta" in the hands of people who are now doing things like driving AP cars from the back seat. Allowing AP on the roads before it's a bit more idiot proof (not the OP, the guys on youtube with 7.0) is going to set AP and autonomous driving back years, the first time some guy activates it against instructions in a blizzard around a school with black ice on the roads. If its somebody you care about killed, be sure to write the grieving parents and tell them Tesla did the right thing by putting beta AP softwares in cars and trusting humans not to turn it on when they've been told not to. Elon's comment was "It should not kill pedestrians. Hopefully." Fan boys can commence hate for my comments, for all I give an F. I drive a Tesla, I don't apologize for every idiotic comment by Elon or any dumb move putting fatal beta software on the roads after a screen that says "don't be naughty and turn this on when you shouldn't."

This thread isn't even about autopilot, and has been dead for weeks... yet you dig it up and post so far three posts about how stupid you think Tesla and Tesla drivers are on the matter in various threads.
 

WarpedOne

Supreme Premier
Aug 17, 2006
4,333
6,350
Slovenia, Europe
I really do not understand all the fear of people misusing AP.
What about all them misusing steering wheel, brakes, accelerator pedal?
What is preventing some driver to drive into your lane? Exactly the same thing that is preventing AP to drive into your lane: that driver's consciousness.

Luddism dies hard.
But is just as stupid today, as was 200 years ago.
 

AWDtsla

Active Member
Mar 3, 2013
4,262
3,952
NE
I really do not understand all the fear of people misusing AP.
What about all them misusing steering wheel, brakes, accelerator pedal?
What is preventing some driver to drive into your lane? Exactly the same thing that is preventing AP to drive into your lane: that driver's consciousness.

Luddism dies hard.
But is just as stupid today, as was 200 years ago.

Everything new is scary. Only more of the same please!
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,936
4,850
This thread isn't even about autopilot, and has been dead for weeks... yet you dig it up and post so far three posts about how stupid you think Tesla and Tesla drivers are on the matter in various threads.
I don't get it either. His post has nothing to do with this dead thread.
 
Last edited:

Herbys

Member
Jul 3, 2012
73
19
Beta software

I'm so appalled by "Kristoffs" comments, without reposting them, I wouldn't even know where to begin. No matter what AP or Tesla does, sorry to see that for now, we'll still have a group to apologize for Tesla and blame everybody but Tesla, who just put lethal software "beta" in the hands of people who are now doing things like driving AP cars from the back seat. Allowing AP on the roads before it's a bit more idiot proof (not the OP, the guys on youtube with 7.0) is going to set AP and autonomous driving back years, the first time some guy activates it against instructions in a blizzard around a school with black ice on the roads. If its somebody you care about killed, be sure to write the grieving parents and tell them Tesla did the right thing by putting beta AP softwares in cars and trusting humans not to turn it on when they've been told not to. Elon's comment was "It should not kill pedestrians. Hopefully." Fan boys can commence hate for my comments, for all I give an F. I drive a Tesla, I don't apologize for every idiotic comment by Elon or any dumb move putting fatal beta software on the roads after a screen that says "don't be naughty and turn this on when you shouldn't."

I'm sorry, but how do expect the software to ever go out of beta without allowing it on the streets? Is it supposedly to one day magically graduate from beta to release in a lab? What is the magical bar that separates beta software from released software? One software vendor's beta is another software vendor's release.
Fact: there's no 100% security on anything.
Fact: software is not different.
Fact: the only way to improve the technology at this point is to test it in the real world at a very large scale.
Fact: the software has ALREADY been tested very intensely by Tesla. Otherwise we would not be discussing this thread, we would be talking about the thousands killed every day by Tesla.
Fact: an intelligent person like Elon should not say "it will not kill pedestrians" when knowing full well that it is a possibility.
Opinion (but a well substantiated one): self-driving cars will save millions of lives. EVEN IF they led to some incremental accidents for people that didn't read the manual and misuse the technology, accelerating the time to market of this technology will have a massively positive impact, saving thousands of lives and avoiding millions of crashes. Every day we advance the maturation of this technology on the market will save thousands of lives.
Considering all that, I think those that try to slow it down by demanding that the technology is magically perfected in a lab have their share of responsibility in the deaths of thousands of men, women and children.
 

WarpedOne

Supreme Premier
Aug 17, 2006
4,333
6,350
Slovenia, Europe
AP is exactly the same as a sharp knife.
Knifes kill thousands of people every year. What are we gonna do about that?

Or should we first concentrate on fighting stupidity?
 

Vitold

Active Member
Aug 10, 2015
1,688
1,785
NM
I really do not understand all the fear of people misusing AP.
What about all them misusing steering wheel, brakes, accelerator pedal?
What is preventing some driver to drive into your lane? Exactly the same thing that is preventing AP to drive into your lane: that driver's consciousness.

Luddism dies hard.
But is just as stupid today, as was 200 years ago.

It's quite opposite. People who understand AI and machine vision fear that drivers will use AP in the situations that are unsafe without even realizing it.
 

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