60 Amp Workplace Charging EVSE

[nwdiver]

Two of my coworkers drive 70 miles each way for work. I think they’re crazy, as my commute is only 8 miles each way, but that’s their situation. 16 amps at 208 volts would just barely cover a one-way commute.

One of those guys is about to move closer in, making it a 30 mile commute each way, but with no home charging options in a basement apartment with street parking. In his case, 16@208 would cover his round trip but leave little extra for errands, weekend activities or commute to another part-time job.

These examples illustrate how fast level 2 charging can enable a much larger group of people to become EV owners.

IMO keeping the cost of the equipment down so you can have more chargers available is more helpful than allowing marathon commuters to only charge at work. Depending on the size of the facility demand fees can be brutal. Here in NM it's ~$10/kW so a 40A charge rate will cost ~$60/mo more than a 16A charge rate.

 

[Big Earl]

IMO keeping the cost of the equipment down so you can have more chargers available is more helpful than allowing marathon commuters to only charge at work. Depending on the size of the facility demand fees can be brutal. Here in NM it's ~$10/kW so a 40A charge rate will cost ~$60/mo more than a 16A charge rate.

So pass some of the cost of charging onto the employees. If someone needs 40 amp workplace charging, they can chip in to cover the addition demand fees and energy consumption.

Our demand fees are similar at $8.88/kW. Energy is cheap at $0.06/kWh.

Charging doesn’t need to be free but it should be available and sufficient to cover as many situations as possible.

 

[Rocky_H]

Ford Mustang Mach-E will have 48 amp J1772 charging.

Why do they insist on not listing the power level of the onboard charger? They won't list kiloWatts, and they won't even list amps. All of their specification details will only use that fuzzy terminology of "miles per hour", which isn't very well coordinated to known values for a vehicle that isn't out yet and doesn't have official wh/mi figures from the EPA so we could back calculate it. That seems to be why I also can't find any review articles that specify the power of the onboard charger--because Ford themselves won't say it.

Here is what they say:

As electric vehicle owners do 80 percent of their charging at home, Ford offers a Ford Connected Charging station that can add an estimated average range of 32 miles per charging hour on a 240V outlet, based on extended-range, rear-wheel-drive configuration. The Ford mobile charger, included with the vehicle, can add an estimated average range of 22 miles per charging hour on a 240V outlet, the same used for a conventional oven.

So I can get some educated guesses from some of this. On the second one, they mention the same outlet used for a conventional oven, so that should be referring to a 14-50 outlet. But on the first one, that is faster charging, they also say "on a 240V outlet". But 14-60 outlets are extremely uncommon, and code doesn't allow pluggable outlets larger than 60A. Maybe they don't literally mean "outlet", but could be referring to hardwired into a circuit. But they still don't say what size circuit. 60A is a decent guess for that, which might be correct.

 

[wws]

This would be news to me. Can you name any?

I think the NA version of the Taycan has 10kW (i.e., 40 amp) charging.

 

[miimura]

Why do they insist on not listing the power level of the onboard charger? They won't list kiloWatts, and they won't even list amps. All of their specification details will only use that fuzzy terminology of "miles per hour", which isn't very well coordinated to known values for a vehicle that isn't out yet and doesn't have official wh/mi figures from the EPA so we could back calculate it. That seems to be why I also can't find any review articles that specify the power of the onboard charger--because Ford themselves won't say it.

Here is what they say:

As electric vehicle owners do 80 percent of their charging at home, Ford offers a Ford Connected Charging station that can add an estimated average range of 32 miles per charging hour on a 240V outlet, based on extended-range, rear-wheel-drive configuration. The Ford mobile charger, included with the vehicle, can add an estimated average range of 22 miles per charging hour on a 240V outlet, the same used for a conventional oven.

So I can get some educated guesses from some of this. On the second one, they mention the same outlet used for a conventional oven, so that should be referring to a 14-50 outlet. But on the first one, that is faster charging, they also say "on a 240V outlet". But 14-60 outlets are extremely uncommon, and code doesn't allow pluggable outlets larger than 60A. Maybe they don't literally mean "outlet", but could be referring to hardwired into a circuit. But they still don't say what size circuit. 60A is a decent guess for that, which might be correct.

Yes, saying their higher powered charging station uses an "outlet" is probably technically incorrect. Math indicates that this is clearly a 48A EVSE on a 60A circuit, giving the quoted 32 miles per hour charge rate. The EVSE provided with the car will use a 14-50 plug and deliver 32A to the car, just like the Gen2 Tesla Mobile Connector. This will result in the quoted 22 miles per hour charging.

I have no idea why they are reluctant to give actual technical specs of the on-board charger in their customer facing materials. However, I believe they did clearly state the 48 amp capability when asked by journalists during the embargoed presentations last Friday.

To me, the bigger mistake in the customer facing materials on the web site was stating the battery capacities in kW instead of kWh. It looks like they've fixed that now.

 

[SageBrush]

Why do they insist on not listing the power level of the onboard charger?

Because their target audience understands

Why do they insist on not listing the power level of the onboard charger? They won't list kiloWatts, and they won't even list amps. All of their specification details will only use that fuzzy terminology of "miles per hour", which isn't very well coordinated to known values for a vehicle that isn't out yet and doesn't have official wh/mi figures from the EPA so we could back calculate it. That seems to be why I also can't find any review articles that specify the power of the onboard charger--because Ford themselves won't say it.

Here is what they say:

As electric vehicle owners do 80 percent of their charging at home, Ford offers a Ford Connected Charging station that can add an estimated average range of 32 miles per charging hour on a 240V outlet, based on extended-range, rear-wheel-drive configuration. The Ford mobile charger, included with the vehicle, can add an estimated average range of 22 miles per charging hour on a 240V outlet, the same used for a conventional oven.

So I can get some educated guesses from some of this. On the second one, they mention the same outlet used for a conventional oven, so that should be referring to a 14-50 outlet. But on the first one, that is faster charging, they also say "on a 240V outlet". But 14-60 outlets are extremely uncommon, and code doesn't allow pluggable outlets larger than 60A. Maybe they don't literally mean "outlet", but could be referring to hardwired into a circuit. But they still don't say what size circuit. 60A is a decent guess for that, which might be correct.

miles and gallons. Remember MPGe ?

Ford offers 22 and 32 'miles range per hour charging' so the kW rates vary by 3:2
Of the common breakers derated to 80% we have in the USA (Amps)
16
24
32
48

Only two possibilities exist: 16/24 and 32/48

16 Amps at 240 volts and 10% charging losses = ~ 3.5 kWh in one hour. If that was 22 miles it implies 160 Wh/mile
32 Amps works out to 320 Wh/mile

320 Wh/mile for the win !!

 

[Rocky_H]

Ford offers 22 and 32 'miles range per hour charging' so the kW rates vary by 3:2
Of the common breakers derated to 80% we have in the USA (Amps)
16
24
32
48

Only two possibilities exist: 16/24 and 32/48

I don't know why you left out 40A. That's normal for a 50A breaker, and they mention an oven outlet, so I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be 40A for the lower and 60A for the higher. I was trying to compare with the miles per hour filling rates of other Tesla vehicles like the S, X, or 3. As we've seen from other vehicles like the Jaguar e-Pace or Audi e-tron, they seem to not be as efficient per energy as the Tesla vehicles, so we would probably see the miles per hour figures be less. On that 40A, the Model 3 gets 37 mi/hr and the S gets 29 and the X gets 25. How will the size and weight of the Ford Mach-e compare? Would it be slightly worse efficiency than the Model X? I suppose probably not, but the Jaguar figures were terrible, so who knows? Is it closer to the 32A figures? Those are 30 for the Model 3, 23 for the Model S, and 20 for the Model X. The Ford 22 mi/hr would about match Tesla's larger vehicles there, which is possible.

 

[SageBrush]

I don't know why you left out 40A. That's normal for a 50A breaker, and they mention an oven outlet, so I wouldn't see why it wouldn't be 40A for the lower and 60A for the higher.

I forgot about 50 Amp breakers but that would be 40 Amps sustained and there is no example of 60 Amps sustained I know of on the market. On the flip side, I don't know of any 40*2/3 sustained Amps charging solutions.