60D vs 90D - Worth $18,000 difference

[MP3Mike]

Second opinion - it is not feasible that the battery limit is at the bottom. The implication with that limit is that 20% of the cells are left dormant, i.e uncharged. I don't have to expand further on why that is not realistic. It is almost certain that the limit is placed on each cell, that is each cell can only charge to 80% of its maximum charge. In that case the implication is that you can charge to 100% each night without risking damage. Yes, the car gives me the warning when I do that, but that warning means nothing, it's just software.

Bottom limiting is just as possible as top limiting. The charge range on a 60 could be 20%-100% of the actual capacity. They wouldn't have to leave any cells uncharged/unused.

Or it could be middle limited, with the charge range being 10%-90%. (Which I think is the most likely.) But we have seen some evidence that 100% is actually 100%. (Hopefully @Ingineer will get to the bottom of this soon and put the issue to bed.)

 

[SmartElectric]

we have seen some evidence that 100% is actually 100%. (Hopefully @Ingineer will get to the bottom of this soon and put the issue to bed.)

Disagree.

The evidence looks opposite to me based on real world supercharging experiences by new 60 owners.
They are seeing >30kW (>90A !) as charging is above 95%, with a picture today of 38kW at 100% just before charging finished.
This is direct visual evidence, not conjecture.

@Ingineer has some thoughts which he wants to clarify with evidence, but he hasn't posted due to needing to directly measure low level statistics during a new 60 charge cycle.

Again, it is very clear that Tesla are allowing far higher rates of charging at the 100% mark on the Tesla main screen, which based on every other Tesla without a limited/restricted battery would not be possible unless the 100% mark on the main screen was not true 100%, but far less, perhaps 80% of the 75 kWh battery.

 

[John E.]

I have had a refresh 60D for the last 4 weeks. I have a couple of opinions on this topic.

First opinion - I had a loaner 85 because of some repairs Tesla wanted to do on undercarriage damage that occurred during shipping. I think the 85 was from about 2014. It was less responsive than my 60, way more noisy, and lacked the overall polish on the interior and exterior that I have on my car. Sorry to offend others who have this or a similar car, it was my perception.

Second opinion - it is not feasible that the battery limit is at the bottom. The implication with that limit is that 20% of the cells are left dormant, i.e uncharged. I don't have to expand further on why that is not realistic. It is almost certain that the limit is placed on each cell, that is each cell can only charge to 80% of its maximum charge. In that case the implication is that you can charge to 100% each night without risking damage. Yes, the car gives me the warning when I do that, but that warning means nothing, it's just software.
(Btw, I get 217 from 100%)

I'm sure the op has made his decision by now, but I like this topic, it makes for good reading. It would be nice to know the final decision!

On your second opinion, I have a 70, and could pay to upgrade my range, so the same assumption should apply to me?

 

[number12]

Bottom limiting is just as possible as top limiting. The charge range on a 60 could be 20%-100% of the actual capacity. They wouldn't have to leave any cells uncharged/unused.

Or it could be middle limited, with the charge range being 10%-90%. (Which I think is the most likely.) But we have seen some evidence that 100% is actually 100%. (Hopefully @Ingineer will get to the bottom of this soon and put the issue to bed.)

Even if possible... Why?

Top limit seems to result in fast charging and no harm to battery... So why not?

 

[MP3Mike]

Even if possible... Why?

Top limit seems to result in fast charging and no harm to battery... So why not?

Some possible reasons:

• Because somebody wanted to.
• Because it leaves more anti-bricking safety.
• Because it would allow Tesla to give someone a courtesy 15kWh of power to get them to the next charger if they ran out of power due to poor planning/conditions.
• To give 60 purchasers an incentive to upgrade to the full 75kWh.
• To not give 60 purchasers an undue advantage over people that paid for the full 75kWh version.

 

[KCSunshine]

It's actually a 75kWh battery limited to 60kWh by software - 70 isn't offered anymore for that upgrade if wanted in future.

We still haven't established if the extra 15kWh is at the top by not being used (makes sense) or if bottom being utilize. The way we are looking find out is to get someone with a new 60 limited battery (or even 70 that was a 75 briefly) to do a 100% charge. If you are charging your 60kWh software limited 75 battery to 100%, it should dramatically slow down and take a while to "balance" even before completing - say 1amp or so a bit. If The top is left unused, it should still complete at a much faster rate so your not touching that slow top 10%. that also means that technically it would then be safer to charge to 100% all the time with a 60kWh software limited 75kWh battery

Soon...

I am waiting for my 60D to be delivered. I was told by Tesla that it is OK to charge the battery to 100% on 60D.

 

[number12]

I am waiting for my 60D to be delivered. I was told by Tesla that it is OK to charge the battery to 100% on 60D.

Email? phone call? In person?

 

[KCSunshine]

Email? phone call? In person?

Both Email and person

 

[travwill]

I am waiting for my 60D to be delivered. I was told by Tesla that it is OK to charge the battery to 100% on 60D.

Yes, it has been verified now by several people that charging a 60kWh battery to 100% is fine - your really only hitting 80% of battery which in reality will keep it pretty healthy

 

[number12]

That seems like a game changer for 60d vs 75d argument. If you get a 75 you are only suppose to charge 80-90% right? So you would be paying that extra money just for the long distance trip once in a while that needs 100% charging?

 

[KCSunshine]

Yes, it has been verified now by several people that charging a 60kWh battery to 100% is fine - your really only hitting 80% of battery which in reality will keep it pretty healthy

I see that you live in Chicago. I'm in Philadelphia so we probably have similar weather in winter. Quick question, how much range do you lose in the winter? I mean in general...

Thank you!

 

[travwill]

I see that you live in Chicago. I'm in Philadelphia so we probably have similar weather in winter. Quick question, how much range do you lose in the winter? I mean in general...

Thank you!

Depends, mostly a lot more the colder it gets. Few observances from last Winter:

1. You lose most at start, less or little if have a heated garage. Gets better after day on freeway 20 mins.

2. Really cold days you start off with limited regen until warmed up.

3. Many short stops are the worst on really cold days as have to keep reheating battery and cabin, less if you don't go too warm in cabin.

4. I'd say if you start at 200rr 100%, since you can in your 60D, in really cold times you'll see about 75% of that to worst case 60%. So 120-150 miles in reality.

Again it's all impacted by trip types, just how cold it is, weather on ground, traffic while using heater, etc. so you could get more. You'll actually see you RR estimated miles drop in Winter months and recover likely in summer again, but it still does drop faster than "advertised" - learn your watts per hour and how used affects you...

Good luck!

 

[LargeHamCollider]

Disagree.

The evidence looks opposite to me based on real world supercharging experiences by new 60 owners.
They are seeing >30kW (>90A !) as charging is above 95%, with a picture today of 38kW at 100% just before charging finished.
This is direct visual evidence, not conjecture.

@Ingineer has some thoughts which he wants to clarify with evidence, but he hasn't posted due to needing to directly measure low level statistics during a new 60 charge cycle.

Again, it is very clear that Tesla are allowing far higher rates of charging at the 100% mark on the Tesla main screen, which based on every other Tesla without a limited/restricted battery would not be possible unless the 100% mark on the main screen was not true 100%, but far less, perhaps 80% of the 75 kWh battery.

Exactly.

 

[KCSunshine]

Depends, mostly a lot more the colder it gets. Few observances from last Winter:

1. You lose most at start, less or little if have a heated garage. Gets better after day on freeway 20 mins.

2. Really cold days you start off with limited regen until warmed up.

3. Many short stops are the worst on really cold days as have to keep reheating battery and cabin, less if you don't go too warm in cabin.

4. I'd say if you start at 200rr 100%, since you can in your 60D, in really cold times you'll see about 75% of that to worst case 60%. So 120-150 miles in reality.

Again it's all impacted by trip types, just how cold it is, weather on ground, traffic while using heater, etc. so you could get more. You'll actually see you RR estimated miles drop in Winter months and recover likely in summer again, but it still does drop faster than "advertised" - learn your watts per hour and how used affects you...

Good luck!

Thank you so much for the detailed reply!

My commute is about 90-100 miles per day. I have garage but unheated. But where I will be parking is outside.
Usually it takes me about 70 mins to get to work. It's about 30% local and 70% freeway.
So if I fully charge the battery, which is advertised 218 miles, under THE worst weather ( say lose 50%), then I would have 108 miles in range.

So will that be too "dangerous" for me???

Thanks in advance!

 

[travwill]

Thank you so much for the detailed reply!

My commute is about 90-100 miles per day. I have garage but unheated. But where I will be parking is outside.
Usually it takes me about 70 mins to get to work. It's about 30% local and 70% freeway.
So if I fully charge the battery, which is advertised 218 miles, under THE worst weather ( say lose 50%), then I would have 108 miles in range.

So will that be too "dangerous" for me???

Thanks in advance!

That's probably worse case but traffic jams can leave you in a jam. See how it goes for a while as will gradually get colder over Nov-Feb so worst is Jan-Feb.

You'll likely be fine I'd say.

You have the luxury of going up to the 75 in future if find it isn't comfortable for ya or doesn't allow detours to other activities. Painful always to do that SW upgrade in price but good to know it's there.

 

[KCSunshine]

That's probably worse case but traffic jams can leave you in a jam. See how it goes for a while as will gradually get colder over Nov-Feb so worst is Jan-Feb.

You'll likely be fine I'd say.

You have the luxury of going up to the 75 in future if find it isn't comfortable for ya or doesn't allow detours to other activities. Painful always to do that SW upgrade in price but good to know it's there.

Thank you!!!

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Not sure if the OP is still wavering between the 60D or 90D, but I recommend look for an inventory 90D. I am not sure if there is any more deals on the nosecone version because they are likely all snatched up by now. I was able to get mine with low mileage in my color for exterior and interior for less than a new loaded 75D. Mine also has all the options available save for the sound studio which I can care less about.

 

[Hrhkee]

I remember an ice storm here in Atlanta when it took me 8 hours to do 75 miles in the cold. Would the 60D get me home? My ice did. it was horrendous watching cars crash or run out of gas dozens per hour. If I leave downtown with 100% at the SC near my job, would I make it home via the tons of hills and valleys I'ld have to traverse?

 

[FlatSix911]

I remember an ice storm here in Atlanta when it took me 8 hours to do 75 miles in the cold. Would the 60D get me home? My ice did. it was horrendous watching cars crash or run out of gas dozens per hour. If I leave downtown with 100% at the SC near my job, would I make it home via the tons of hills and valleys I'ld have to traverse?

Sorry to hear ... the good news is the Tesla is very efficient when moving slowly or near idle... much better that ICE

 

[Brass Guy]

Sorry to hear ... the good news is the Tesla is very efficient when moving slowly or near idle... much better that ICE

Unless you're heating the cabin in an ice storm.