We'll have to see what actually comes out when 8.1 arrives, but on the surface of it this does seem like a quick and easy solution to camper mode.
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We'll have to see what actually comes out when 8.1 arrives, but on the surface of it this does seem like a quick and easy solution to camper mode.
Unless they never had a chance
How about service center visits? Do they know and agree to not update your software or do you have to avoid them.
LOL at "controllable by phone!" Tesla forgot about the phone app long ago, sadly. It's really pretty pathetic at this point.
This is to me, by far, the most annoying thing Tesla has ever done to the vehicle. It negatively changes the way I interact with the vehicle on a nearly daily basis. I can almost understand the change on neighborhood streets, or maybe other streets with 25-40mph speed limits, but the change was absolutely ridiculous as implemented. I drive on an awful lot of roads that have 50+ mph speed limits, some which are even divided roads (but not officially designated highway), where this limitation is complete nonsense. Really hoping this one gets rolled back, but not holding my breath.
I know some people are excited about the 8.0 changes, but I could care less about most of it. I'm another person who will be waiting to see how the nags work out before upgrading. If tugging the wheel to get rid of the alert counts as "ignoring" the alert and contributes to autopilot being temporarily shut off, I will not be downloading the firmware.
Where are the changes that everyone actually cares about? Better mapping service for navigation? Multiple stops on a route? Multiple route options? Better (useful) browser performance? CarPlay (or some kind of equivalent)? Album art that isn't useless on podcasts? 3rd party apps? Supercharger status?
I agree with the title of the post - net loss for customers, mostly placating legal, and almost completely ignoring everything Tesla owners have been asking for since 7.0.
Steely Dan? Call the ASPCA. That's animal abuse!
+1.
Without AP, you take your hands off the wheel, and the car (if properly aligned) will continue straight, at least for a while. Chances are you're not going to keep your hands off the wheel a long time, thus the famous "knee steering manouver". Now, with AP, you are one software bug away from a sharp turn, into the guardrail, off the cliff, incoming traffic, take your pick. All software has bugs. Why in the world would you want to bet your property or life that you'll never hit one of those bugs?
You sir, are one very understanding customer! Please don't quit your day job. Perhaps fortunately for everyone else, that is not how NHTSA views the world.
"Sorry pal, all software has bugs!" *shrug*
Put the software bugs debate aside for a moment. You are correct, all software has bugs. But you're very naive not to understand that the NHTSA and other regulators are encouraging these added controls for many other reasons too numerous to list here. Their "day job" and mandate is public safety. Tesla obviously agrees because they've had similar controls in place since 7.1.
How do you have credibility in this argument if you agreed to the terms and conditions of AP in 7.1 which Includes language to always have your hands on the wheel and yet you freely admit you have breached that agreement ever day?
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Interested that you have that view. To me @Cebe described exactly how it currently is. It is not Autonomous, and it is also not what Elon intimated originally ("On-ramp to off-ramp"), but it is very very good (relative to what any other car in production can achieve). That leaves the occasions when it isn't "very very good" ... plenty of stories here about the car taking a dive for another lane etc. and I, for one, certainly don't want to become a Statistic. I am not taking my life in my hands, by taking my hands off the wheel, until we have Fully Autonomous, or AP gets to a version where it is out of Beta and has no known remaining foibles (and maybe that will never be possible with the current sensors ...)
Until then I don't think it is good enough to drive hands-off-wheel because the reaction time to get hands-on-wheel is too long. I've seen people post here that 1/10th second at 60 MPH is only 6 feet travelled, so my actual thinking on this is that I would like a motoring organisation to do some reaction-time tests and if they say hands-on-lap is good enough I'll change my stance.
(I also think that hands-off-wheel will allow complacency to creep in over time ... "AP always drives this road just fine" ... and then we run the risk that hands-off-wheel drivers become over-confident and do something else, e.g. texting, thereby becoming a risk to themselves and other road users).
It is important that anyone with hands on wheel never gets and nags; I fully get that
It is important that anyone who feels that they bought on-ramp to off-ramp AP gets some redress, whatever that might be. (I can't see Tesla bailing them out, 'coz all owners could claim that was our expectation
so I have no suggestion on that point, I'm afraid)That would then leave, what seems to me to be the status quo, which is that AP works well but still needs hands on wheel at all times.
Agree that NHTSA does see these technologies as net good, and are allowing more rope...the entire OTA update mindset is not something they have made a clear decision on how to incorporate into their previous paradigm.
This is a forum, so I have sufficient 'credibility' to post here. There is an ignore button, so you are always free to block any message or viewpoint you don't agree with and return to watching Fox News.
If you want to talk about the legal disclaimer associated with 7.1, you are making my point rather nicely. A car without autopilot doesn't do anything unpredictable. Neither should Autopilot. If another car behaves in a surprising manner, or the road surface has a challenging curve / surface mu, etc. that modifies the reasonable person's expectations of Autopilot's performance. If the road is straight, and the weather is clear, and a software bug causes the vehicle to steer into an armco barrier, that is not predictable by a reasonable user. And very likely, they get to explain themselves in a courtroom. Having the customer click an on-screen agreement doesn't change their responsibility to provide safe products. If 7.1 isn't safe, they would have to recall it.
This is a forum, so I have sufficient 'credibility' to post here.
There is an ignore button, so you are always free to block any message or viewpoint you don't agree with and return to watching Fox News.If you want to talk about the legal disclaimer associated with 7.1, you are making my point rather nicely. A car without autopilot doesn't do anything unpredictable. Neither should Autopilot. If another car behaves in a surprising manner, or the road surface has a challenging curve / surface mu, etc. that modifies the reasonable person's expectations of Autopilot's performance. If the road is straight, and the weather is clear, and a software bug causes the vehicle to steer into an armco barrier, that is not predictable by a reasonable user. And very likely, they get to explain themselves in a courtroom. Having the customer click an on-screen agreement doesn't change their responsibility to provide safe products. If 7.1 isn't safe, they would have to recall it.
I fully agree with this, and as mentioned several times, I don't trust the system, and I do have a hand on the wheel and both when I suspect trouble.
This wasn't mean't to be a discussion of best practices for using autopilot. Stay ready and capable to correct for autopilot's mistakes. My point was that Tesla had a legal problem, and 'solved' the legal problem to strengthen their ability to blame others instead of focusing on things that cause the system to err.
This was meant to be a discussion for people already using and pleased with Autopilot in it's 7.1 format, that will suddenly (by some reports) now need to 'prove' they are holding the wheel every 60 seconds down the freeway. Does that make it any safer? Does that make it a hassle? Do other improvements justify the hassle? That is the topic I wanted to hear from others about.
If you haven't watched BlackTesla's youtube video, it is the first one I have seen where he drives on 8.0. 2 hold the wheel warnings right on schedule. My heart sank when I saw that...
You have a *right* to post anything you want within the rules of the forum. Your "credibility" goes to whether what you say can be trusted. By the way, I'm not a "Fox News" person (quite the opposite) but I do believe that if you agree to do something that you keep your word. Your trying to deflect your responsibility on Tesla when they are doing everything they can to make AP as safe as possible. If you don't want to accept those controls then AP should be recalled like you said by disabling it on *your* car because you are a threat to more than just yourself.Agree that NHTSA does see these technologies as net good, and are allowing more rope...the entire OTA update mindset is not something they have made a clear decision on how to incorporate into their previous paradigm.
This is a forum, so I have sufficient 'credibility' to post here.
If you want to talk about the legal disclaimer associated with 7.1, you are making my point rather nicely. A car without autopilot doesn't do anything unpredictable. Neither should Autopilot. If another car behaves in a surprising manner, or the road surface has a challenging curve / surface mu, etc. that modifies the reasonable person's expectations of Autopilot's performance. If the road is straight, and the weather is clear, and a software bug causes the vehicle to steer into an armco barrier, that is not predictable by a reasonable user. And very likely, they get to explain themselves in a courtroom. Having the customer click an on-screen agreement doesn't change their responsibility to provide safe products. If 7.1 isn't safe, they would have to recall it.
Edit: Tesla only has a legal problem because of the accident and the press. They have no choice but to do the right thing.
Fox News is just the poster child for being targeted at people who want to hear their existing opinions reinforced, rather than hear a discussion of topics by reasonable people on both sides. Implying that we have no 'credibility' to complain about a system that nags for a steering torque (not touch) every 1-3 minutes, when that wasn't required at purchase because we accepted a legal disclaimer is a disingenuous statement.
Chopr147
Active Member
I watch CNN because I love to hear all the Liberal opinions re-enforced. Hillary is the most honest candidate we have ever had
I'm not saying "we" I'm talking about "you" and when *you* bought your car nags were part of it so you're the one being disingenuous. But as an owner when AP first came out "hands on wheel" was more of a suggestion than a requirement but a) I knew it was beta and things would change and b) as soon as people started acting irresponsibly it was incumbent on Tesla to address the problem. Things change, that's life.
Last December I drove all the way from the Washington, DC area to Atlanta and back (with 5 Supercharger stops each way) using Autopilot. Other than within construction zones or where other drivers behaved poorly, I never had to touch the wheel. The only nags with version 7.0 software were for situations where the driver actually needed to take over steering. During this trip I was far less fatigued, and got to spend more of my time looking around outside rather than worrying about lane-keeping or maintaining speed -- my situational awareness was actually enhanced. This ability to use Autopilot was one of the key reasons why I bought a Tesla last year.
When version 7.1 was introduced, the Autopilot 5-mph-above-the-speed-limit-on-secondary roads limitation seemed reasonable because many of these roads had tighter curves and dips/crests where it was necessary for the car to drive more slowly for Autopilot to stay in its lane. (And of course there are still many roads that are too narrow and/or curvy to use Autopilot at all, despite the IC showing Autopilot availability via the gray steering wheel.) With 7.1 the ability to drive on freeways and other limited-access highways without usually being nagged to hold the wheel remained, so I was happy.
But now with 8.0, I have to agree with the title of this thread: the new restrictions trying to force hands on the wheel at all times are a huge loss of functionality and were obviously done to reduce Tesla's legal liability. If you can't drive hands-free for more than a minute even on a limited access highway, what's the point of auto steering??? To me, that's just as ridiculous as making you touch the brakes or accelerator at least once per minute when using cruise control.
Needless to say, I (like a number of other Tesla owners) will not be "upgrading" to 8.0.
When version 7.1 was introduced, the Autopilot 5-mph-above-the-speed-limit-on-secondary roads limitation seemed reasonable because many of these roads had tighter curves and dips/crests where it was necessary for the car to drive more slowly for Autopilot to stay in its lane. (And of course there are still many roads that are too narrow and/or curvy to use Autopilot at all, despite the IC showing Autopilot availability via the gray steering wheel.) With 7.1 the ability to drive on freeways and other limited-access highways without usually being nagged to hold the wheel remained, so I was happy.
But now with 8.0, I have to agree with the title of this thread: the new restrictions trying to force hands on the wheel at all times are a huge loss of functionality and were obviously done to reduce Tesla's legal liability. If you can't drive hands-free for more than a minute even on a limited access highway, what's the point of auto steering??? To me, that's just as ridiculous as making you touch the brakes or accelerator at least once per minute when using cruise control.
Needless to say, I (like a number of other Tesla owners) will not be "upgrading" to 8.0.
msnow bought his car last fall, and I didn't buy mine until this summer. He wanted everyone to know that, so please acknowledge him. I have no right to complain that the nags are going from whatever they are now (almost never) to 1-3 minutes because he liked the band before they were cool.
BTW, for those that dislike the 5mph over limit, I noticed something interesting that might be a slight hack while I was reviewing the 7.0->7.1->8.0 changes. If you set the units to km instead of mi, the limit is 10km/h over and thus becomes 61.5mph instead of 60 on a 55mph zone. I tried it this morning and it does seem to work.
BTW, for those that dislike the 5mph over limit, I noticed something interesting that might be a slight hack while I was reviewing the 7.0->7.1->8.0 changes. If you set the units to km instead of mi, the limit is 10km/h over and thus becomes 61.5mph instead of 60 on a 55mph zone. I tried it this morning and it does seem to work.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Why? given that:
if you have your hand(s) on the wheel AND you get a nag then I'm right behind you in wanting to get that improved. But that apart the nags will not bother you, is that right?
For me it is a surprise that anyone would want to trust AP enough to have their hands off the wheel (notwithstanding that I recognise that was the original Sales Pitch), I just would not want to risk my life and the life of others given that AP is so "young" and, on rare occasions, is documented as doing daft things! I could do with an understanding of why hands-off folks are comfortable to drive with their hands off the wheel.
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