70D loaded vs. 85D with fewer options

[travwill]

Agree on the loaded 70D approach. I did that versus a more basic 85D at the time. Range has never been an issue and I do appreciate the nicer interior, sound is better, the panoramic roof opens up the car, etc. Used air suspension a few times which actually has been handy also, mainly when parked parallel next to taller curb allowing me to open door more, steep driveways, and probably some here in winter I think. The subzero package here will be worth its weight in gold for just the heated steering wheel based on previous experiences with one ;-)

 

[Magus]

I appreciate all of your responses. In another forum, another person recommended looking into CHAdeMO charging in places where there are gaps in superchargers. I checked a map of CHAdeMO Chargers and sure enough there are a couple located along the routes that I regularly travel where there are no superchargers. Since a $450 adapter (even with the extra $2500 charge for dual chargers in the future) is much less than the $10k difference between the two batteries, would this be a good option if I was still considering the 70D?? Can anyone here in the North East share their experiences using CHAdeMO chargers??

As someone with actual 70D experience, I think the 70D will work well for you. You wouldn't need a significant amount of time to charge via CHADEMO. Charge CHADEMO while eating a snack or lunch and you will have wasted no real world time.

On off SC trips I've used CHADEMO while grabbing lunch or dinner and it works beautifully.

I looked at a basic 85D vs nicely specced 70D. I think I would have been unhappy with fewer features. My MC red is a beauty to look at, as is the wood paneling, etc.

The money saved on a 70D will work nicely towards retirement or investments. If you need to take a trip current ranges cannot reach, you can rent or use a hybrid or regular ICE, and make your trips much faster and with less worry than the 85D.

 

[shadowinstallz]

85d.....you will want that extra range in the winter and elevation changes.

As for sound package....Im a sound guy and didn't think the premium sound was worth the extra cash. I put in the nvx sub and it made a huge difference on the low frequency. If youre the NYC area I can show you how it sounds.

 

[bredi]

I went 85d instead of a loaded 70d primarily for the performance.

However, I really wish I got the NextGen Seats. I prefer the textile over the standard leather. They grip more.
I didn't know how bad the standard driving lights are. Since I never test drove at night, I just assumed it was as good as other luxury cars. It is NOT. The standard driving lights on winding roads is dangerous.


85d (performance/range)
Coil (save on the air - more BMW like)
Pano (you don't want)
Textile (over leather)

I would add this next time around.
Next Gen Seats
Lighting package (only for the non "luxury" fog lights). Auto Hatch would prove to be the most useful "luxury" part of the package. With the ability to set the height of the hatchback. Some low garages are a frustrating and blood boiling unwanted surprise!

 

[Kratus]

I thought 85D would be a better option but also expected to hear a few compelling arguments supporting the 70D as well.

I would say it depends what kind of driver you are. By charging at 100% and driving normally, you should make your 180 miles with no problem, even in winter.

As far as the seats I really didn't consider textile to be an option for me. I have a test drive scheduled Wednesday so I will inquire about them. That would be a huge $1750 savings.

A few years ago I went from leather to textile on another car brand, and I really loved it. I wouldn't take leather anymore.

I'm also assuming the cold weather package is a no brainier for living in New England.

Well, I thought that too, until I watched Bjørn Nyland's video where he says this option isn't worth buying. In Norway!

 

[S'toon]

I would say it depends what kind of driver you are. By charging at 100% and driving normally, you should make your 180 miles with no problem, even in winter.


A few years ago I went from leather to textile on another car brand, and I really loved it. I wouldn't take leather anymore.


Well, I thought that too, until I watched Bjørn Nyland's video where he says this option isn't worth buying. In Norway!

Norway actually doesn't get that cold. -5 degrees C. I looked it up after Bjorn kept saying it was cold around 0.

For example, Bjorn is moving NORTH to Bodo. Bodo on average gets above 0 in January.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodø#Climate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo#Climate

It gets way colder here. We get down to -38 degrees or so, -40 even at night. We can go a couple of weeks without it going above -30.

 

[Kratus]

Thanks for the climate information. I didn't know there was such a difference with New England.

 

[S'toon]

Thanks for the climate information. I didn't know there was such a difference with New England.

Oh, I'm not in New England. I'm in the middle of the Canadian prairies.

We get a bit obsessed with the weather here.

 

[Kratus]

The first poster asked about New England, so I assumed you were living there too.

 

[shelbri]

As others have said, range is key. I live in CT and my stretch between home and Mystic is 90 miles each way - no SC in between. No problem going back and forth. My issue is I don't have destination charging and tend to drive around during the weekend while in Mystic. I'm glad I have the 85.

In winter, range takes a good hit. My lifetime Wh/mi is 341 (27,500 miles) but my last 12k miles during warmer months has been 307 Wh/mi.

This past winter was brutal and I drive to VT 2-3x a month. I was amazed at the traction on the 85 with Michelin IceX tires and RWD. Never had an issue and drove in several storms last winter. The D is probably even better but if cost is a concern I'd consider CPO 85. I would not give up range.

 

[KJD]

There are a lot of things I could live without. Range is NOT one of them. Get the 85D.

 

[Magus]

The range of the 70D is 92-93% of the 85. My lifetime is 267 and bet I would have very similar range to an 85. Remember, the actual EPA range is 245- Tesla voluntarily reduced it to 240. The 70D has about 89% the range of the 85D (actual 245/275 - 85D with better highway efficiency than city. We are talking significantly less than a 20% difference. We are talking nowhere near even 30% range increase. The 70D will work very well. 180 in very cold weather is easy for the 70D. You have CHADEMO access on your 180 mile trip. If you want more of a buffer you need only spend some 5-10 minutes. Or you can have lunch of a snack and get a nice range add. You do not need the 85 or 85D.

Also, the range estimates for degradation are very good. You can find the graph somewhere on the Tesla forums. We are talking very similar degradation percentage- like 92% by 500,000 miles. The 85D decreases to 24x with the 70D 22x - at like 500,000 miles. The range difference between an 85D and 70D actually decreases over time.

I will add one more point to consider. The highway and city mileage is the same for the 70D. For the 85D the efficiency is higher than its city- 2 absolute percentage points higher than the 70D but effectively same highway efficiency. That being said, some of my cars had average mph was nowhere near the highway speed. There is a solid value behind the 70D's equal city/highway efficiency. Meaning, the 70D's all around efficiency can potentially grab it some nice gains in different traffic conditions- highway included.

Not counting the 60, it is the most efficient Model S. And until the gigafactory arrives, the cleanest in terms of environmental footprint - if that is a factor for you. I know it is for myself.

 

[Magus]

A few more points on why the 70D is a good value and choice vs the higher spec batteries.

-look at Bjorn's video on cold weather driving. The largest battery drain in cold weather is warm up. Once the Model S and battery is warmed up, the efficiency decrease is not as severe.
-If you check out the range calculator on the website - driving at 70 mph in 0 degree weather with heat on nets you 180 on 70D, 205 on 85D. At 65 it is 195 vs 222.
-The round trip is 180 miles. With 70mph, 0 degree temperature, and heat on you'll be making a CHADEMO stop in the 70D for sure (which you have access to, removing a major factor). With 85D in these conditions, you only get a 25 miles in addition to that. That is perhaps an absolute 9-10% of the battery. You can make it without CHADEMO in those conditions technically, but do you really want to go without a charge with a low buffer? If I had an 85D I would still use CHADEMO and get better buffer. If you have a winter storm or bad road conditions, I would still hit the CHADEMO on both.
-if you CHADEMO the 70D for quick snack or lunch, vs no stop with the 85D you will have significantly more of a buffer than the 85D which does not CHADEMO charge for your 180 mile roundtrip
-The 70D will ABSOLUTELY do everything you need it to with your needs. It will do what you want. You have a little bit more flexibility and a little less need for planning with the 85D, not a major difference though.
-everyone should be taking driving breaks - perfect for a chademo charge, instead of driving 200 miles straight.
Why it's vital to take breaks while driving long distances - Telegraph
-the charging rate difference between the 85 and 70 batteries disappears when you take breaks, grab a snack or lunch. Part of my most recent trip involved driving near an 85. They stopped for lunch, I took a quick snack - regardless the charge wanted to reach the next SC was complete before I received my food. They were continuing to eat. Real world factors change the dynamic.
-in two years or so with much greater expanded Supercharger and Non Tesla charger access, bigger battery specs, the differences discussed between the 85D and the 70D of 2015 will be piddling.

 

[robby]

The range of the 70D is 92-93% of the 85. My lifetime is 267 and bet I would have very similar range to an 85. Remember, the actual EPA range is 245- Tesla voluntarily reduced it to 240. The 70D has about 89% the range of the 85D (actual 245/275 - 85D with better highway efficiency than city. We are talking significantly less than a 20% difference. We are talking nowhere near even 30% range increase. The 70D will work very well. 180 in very cold weather is easy for the 70D. You have CHADEMO access on your 180 mile trip. If you want more of a buffer you need only spend some 5-10 minutes. Or you can have lunch of a snack and get a nice range add. You do not need the 85 or 85D.

Also, the range estimates for degradation are very good. You can find the graph somewhere on the Tesla forums. We are talking very similar degradation percentage- like 92% by 500,000 miles. The 85D decreases to 24x with the 70D 22x - at like 500,000 miles. The range difference between an 85D and 70D actually decreases over time.

I will add one more point to consider. The highway and city mileage is the same for the 70D. For the 85D the efficiency is higher than its city- 2 absolute percentage points higher than the 70D but effectively same highway efficiency. That being said, some of my cars had average mph was nowhere near the highway speed. There is a solid value behind the 70D's equal city/highway efficiency. Meaning, the 70D's all around efficiency can potentially grab it some nice gains in different traffic conditions- highway included.

Not counting the 60, it is the most efficient Model S. And until the gigafactory arrives, the cleanest in terms of environmental footprint - if that is a factor for you. I know it is for myself.

Do you have any data/anecdotes on 70D Wh/mi when driving in the snow with an outside temperature of ~0 degrees F? That is the situation I fear for the OP -- compounding losses from precipitation (traction and air density) and extreme cold... and heaven forbid a headwind or elevation gain.

I have found in our 85D it is very easy to get into the mid-400s Wh/mi in bad conditions (disclaimer, we also use a ski box which hurts numbers, but see also the following): EV trip planner, with no precipitation taken into account, assumes 451 Wh/mi to make a 150-mile trip into ski country in 0 degree weather:

That gives us an expected energy usage of 68.4618 kWh for a 151.1 mile trip. Admittedly the 70D should be a little more efficient -- but factor in precipitation, 30 more miles, headwinds and/or elevation gains and it's at best cutting it close.

If OP has a chademo stop between 1/3 and 2/3 along the way and does not mind stopping to charge, all of this goes out the window. But if you want to make it in one go and are considering the 70D, I would research heavily and do the math on 70D vs 85D efficiency gains.

 

[shadowinstallz]

From Winter driving experience ....you will see significant energy use increase...I've done many trips up to new England and can tell u those extra 25-30 miles makes a huge difference from making the next charging or destination station.

 

[Magus]

That's a good snippet of information on a 151 mile trip. No anecdotes yet, but will find out. So far in 40-50 degree weather my WH/Mi seems to go up slightly. At driving slightly above speed limit getting 260 ish - of course the dynamics will change with particularly cold temps and is not a comparison.

It does make sense to go with a higher spec batter as people are 'saying.' However, my argument is based on the OP saying that he has CHADEMO access. What he can't do is the 180 mile roundtrip at 70 mph with 0 degree weather and heat on in the 70D, and reliably expect to get back without any sort of charging. I suppose one could worry about the CHADEMO being available, or reliable. If it was me, even with an 85D I think I would utilize the CHADEMO, have a hot drink, take a break, build an even better buffer, and avoid the lower end of the battery. My 70D fits nicely with taking short driving/food breaks at SC, and CHADEMO stations. I've taken a lot more road trips in my 70D than my other cars, so it is a capable traveling vehicle.

 

[RockinWithKids]

The OP and me are in the same boat. I live in MN and when we purchase the MS we'll have a Leaf and an MS. We have several places that we frequent during the winter months and I am planning for the worst weather (ie sub zero F) in my calculations for those trips. Thus, my "formula" for us to purchase a MS that we had to have a place to charge every 125 miles (for either the 70D or the 85S/D) for our normal trips we take during the winter - which we do. If I had to stretch to 150 miles as the OP is looking at doing without a charging safety net I would seriously consider the 85 or ask myself if I am willing to drive slower than posted speeds if needed to increase range.

Next step for me... Looking for a CPO 85 that has what we could "live with" for a price point we are willing to pay. If we cannot find that than we will pull the trigger on the 70D that includes exactly what we want.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a good snippet of information on a 151 mile trip. No anecdotes yet, but will find out. So far in 40-50 degree weather my WH/Mi seems to go up slightly. At driving slightly above speed limit getting 260 ish - of course the dynamics do change. Hmmm, I renege - it does make sense for the OP to go 85D with fewer options, or CPO with significant options.

@Magus - which MS do you own (70 D/S or 85D/S/P)?

 

[Magus]

The OP and me are in the same boat. I live in MN and when we purchase the MS we'll have a Leaf and an MS. We have several places that we frequent during the winter months and I am planning for the worst weather (ie sub zero F) in my calculations for those trips. Thus, my "formula" for us to purchase a MS that we had to have a place to charge every 125 miles (for either the 70D or the 85S/D) for our normal trips we take during the winter - which we do. If I had to stretch to 150 miles as the OP is looking at doing without a charging safety net I would seriously consider the 85 or ask myself if I am willing to drive slower than posted speeds if needed to increase range.

Next step for me... Looking for a CPO 85 that has what we could "live with" for a price point we are willing to pay. If we cannot find that than we will pull the trigger on the 70D that includes exactly what we want.

- - - Updated - - -



@Magus - which MS do you own (70 D/S or 85D/S/P)?

I have the 70D. I've been able to go to a nice selection of state parks in it, such as st croix via the pine city CHADEMO. Have been able to see some amazing sites in MN on the 70D. Some of the farther out state parks are not doable even if I had the 90D. There are two that the 85D or 90D would make easier, but not enough for me to have forked over $10-13k more for. These state parks such as Whitewater I can still make comfortably with the 70D, just have to stop at a level II charger to make it with range plenty to enjoy the sites. With the 70D I very comfortably make it to Tettoughe (probably massacred the spelling), gooseberry, etc. The mix of SC and CHADEMO makes exploring in the Model S fun, and would have been able to get by on these and much longer trips even with a 60.

 

[StaceyS]

We were in a similar quandry as the OP. Go 70kwh with more options, or 85 base. We live in a fairly remote area, and we drive to more remote areas. While our daily driving, the 85 is complete overkill, this car was replacing our primary car, so it needed to perform on long distance. So for us, the 85 kwh battery was key.

We ended up getting a fully loaded CPO P85, and I'm glad we did. I had a loaner 85 for 2 days once, and there were a lot of features present in our car that I missed in the loaner (particularly Navigation! You have that giant, beautiful screen and it can show you a map and where you are, but not how to get to where you want to go. Grr!). Our car came with a lot of visual extras too that I otherwise would not have paid for, such as 21" wheels, red brake calipers, carbon fiber rear spoiler, but since our car has them, it just looks really nice and premium. Our car has air suspension, its fine, and I enjoy the ability to raise the car, but I wouldn't have paid for the option.

Overall, all the added things our car has make up to a very nice, very premium package for us, above and beyond what we otherwise could have afforded brand new. Having driving a few lesser spec cars, it makes me feel great to have those features. Honestly, I would probably have been just as happy with a base model car, but I'm happy with the choice we made.

(We also sold a VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI to get this car, and I'm super happy we did that in June before Dieselgate broke out!)

 

[tanker5]

Update -- Thank you all for your responses. After careful consideration, I decided to order a 70D with the options that I want. After doing some research, I found many EV chargers along the routes which I travel that don't contain superchargers. Since I only travel these routes about once a month or so, I am comfortable with using slower EV chargers once in a while for emergency purposes. My order is as follows:

70D
Titanium Metallic
Tan Next Gen Seats
Matte Obeché wood decor
Body colored roof
Standard 19" rims
Autopilot
Premium Interior and Lighting
Ultra High Fidelity Sound
Subzero Weather Package