An Update to our Supercharging Program

[jerry33]

Making supercharging no longer free for new owners is almost certain to change charging behavior. I just hope the charging infrastructure (both superchargers and destination chargers) is in place so that no one ever needs to perform a 100% charge at a supercharger by the time our Model 3 starts shipping in volume.

That is unlikely to happen during our (or at least my) lifetime. While they have make very good progress over the past four years, it's still a very long way from "only a maximum daily charge is required to travel anywhere in North America, or even just the lower 48". This is true in spades in winter when an 85's range drops to around 175 miles. And I'd guess that all the easy-to-obtain locations have already been taken, so it's going to be harder from now on to get each additional location.

The only other solution is longer range, in the 400-600 mile category. The technology isn't quite there yet but I'll bet that it's there long before all the SC locations are in place.

 

[demundus]

Tesla is contradicting itself somewhat by placing SCs in places where you can bide your time with activities. For example:

Tesla and Ruby Tuesday partner to open a series of new Supercharger Stations

As a personal anecdote, there is a SC half a mile from a restaurant we go to in San Diego from time to time. It's usually after work and in the opposite direction, so by the time I get off, and get there, I'm hovering at like 60mi (long commute). We are happy to park and walk the distance to eat then walk back... sometimes my car will finish before we get back, sometimes not, depends on congestion and all the other random variables at play.

Point being, now I have to be hyper aware of activities during my SC, and be within 5 minutes of my car before the charge is estimated to be finished.

The approach feels heavy handed, even for someone who doesn't supercharge that often. I see the goal, I just wish there was a better way to deal with the problem.

 

[TexasEV]

Tesla is contradicting itself somewhat by placing SCs in places where you can bide your time with activities. For example:

Tesla and Ruby Tuesday partner to open a series of new Supercharger Stations

As a personal anecdote, there is a SC half a mile from a restaurant we go to in San Diego from time to time. It's usually after work and in the opposite direction, so by the time I get off, and get there, I'm hovering at like 60mi (long commute). We are happy to park and walk the distance to eat then walk back... sometimes my car will finish before we get back, sometimes not, depends on congestion and all the other random variables at play.

Point being, now I have to be hyper aware of activities during my SC, and be within 5 minutes of my car before the charge is estimated to be finished.

The approach feels heavy handed, even for someone who doesn't supercharge that often. I see the goal, I just wish there was a better way to deal with the problem.

You can easily eat in a Ruby Tuesday in under 45 minutes. If your car reaches 100% charge in under 45 minutes, you probably didn't need to charge in the first place. If you really wanted or needed to stay longer, it's less than 5 minutes to walk into the parking lot, move your car to a regular space, and walk back into the restaurant.

For the restaurant a half mile away, how about stopping at the supercharger for 10 min. before or after the restaurant if you really need the charge. If it's 60 miles round trip I don't know why you would (or am I misunderstanding the commute)?

 

[demundus]

You can easily eat in a Ruby Tuesday in under 45 minutes. If your car reaches 100% charge in under 45 minutes, you probably didn't need to charge in the first place. If you really wanted or needed to stay longer, it's less than 5 minutes to walk into the parking lot, move your car to a regular space, and walk back into the restaurant.

For the restaurant a half mile away, how about stopping at the supercharger for 10 min. before or after the restaurant if you really need the charge. If it's 60 miles round trip I don't know why you would (or am I misunderstanding the commute)?

I'm giving an example of why SC's usually are where they are... and to be honest, some people eat slower than others. I'm sure I could finish in 25 minutes tbh, but really what you're saying is "I personally think you and everyone else should be able to do X in Y time" which is a little self serving at the moment.

I meant due to my commute I usually don't have much range when I get home, so I will supercharge locally on nights where we go out after work.

I think a better question here is... how many of you actually wait to SC these days? I do. 100% of the time in the past three months I've waited at least 10-15 minutes to charge at both my local SCs. Having said that I still think this approach is heavy handed, and I don't have a better solution to replace it, before you ask.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Making supercharging no longer free for new owners is almost certain to change charging behavior. I just hope the charging infrastructure (both superchargers and destination chargers) is in place so that no one ever needs to perform a 100% charge at a supercharger by the time our Model 3 starts shipping in volume.

It will change charging behavior, but won't change behavior for those overstaying at a charger. This is because Tesla seems to be adopting a kWh based billing system instead of a time based system.

 

[tnt1971]

They should base this on how busy the charging station is. If you are the only car in a 12 station charger, what is the big deal if you overstay. I was at the NJ station in Hamilton a month ago and all chargers were taken with one in queue. I walked around the cars and only one was making an audible cooling noise. You know at least a few of them were done and the owners were shopping or eating. Overall, I think it is a great change but again, they should base the charges on how needed the station is.

 

[disagree]

This move is complete bullshit for those of us who do long road trips, especially with kids or older passengers. Having to SC instead of "gas up" was a sacrifice we made in order to support Ev cars: more frequent stops and longer stops. This sacrifice was supposed to be mitigated by the conveniences located around SC's.

Stations are strategically placed to minimize stops during long distance travel and are conveniently located near restaurants, shopping centers, and WiFi hot spots.

Grab a cup of coffee or a bite to eat while your vehicle charges

Just don't forget to be close to your car so you can move it within 5 minutes. Nonsense.

 

[jgs]

This move is complete bullshit for those of us who do long road trips, especially with kids or older passengers. Having to SC instead of "gas up" was a sacrifice we made in order to support Ev cars: more frequent stops and longer stops. This sacrifice was supposed to be mitigated by the conveniences located around SC's.

I have all those attributes and I'm not bothered, especially with the walk-back for locations that aren't busy (that seems to have other folks all worried, oh well, can't please everyone). At the threatened $0.40/minute, in the worst case where you're, what? an hour "late" back to your car, you're out of pocket twenty-four bucks on your "free" fill-up. I can cope with that level of risk.

On the other hand, presumably those of us who do long road trips etc etc will appreciate the (presumably) lower risk of arriving at a SC and finding out that we have to wait around for a stall to become available. Although this hasn't happened to me, having to wait for a half-hour to get into a stall would annoy me considerably more than having to pay $24 in fees for overstaying my own stall. Since (per the latest tweet) the fee only applies to SC locations where congestion is likely, it seems like a best-of-both-worlds choice: minimize my probability of having to queue for a charge at busy locations, but don't nickel-and-dime me with fees at idle locations.

Just don't forget to be close to your car so you can move it within 5 minutes.

You left off "or pay a fee". Which is really a pretty nominal one compared to (say) a half-tank of gas.

Nonsense.

And humbug too! But I'm curious: do you have a preferred option that would minimize SC wait times? Or do you not value your time enough to care about waiting?

 

[jgs]

They should base this on how busy the charging station is. If you are the only car in a 12 station charger, what is the big deal if you overstay. I was at the NJ station in Hamilton a month ago and all chargers were taken with one in queue. I walked around the cars and only one was making an audible cooling noise. You know at least a few of them were done and the owners were shopping or eating. Overall, I think it is a great change but again, they should base the charges on how needed the station is.

Twitter

"We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park."

 

[disagree]

I have all those attributes and I'm not bothered, especially with the walk-back for locations that aren't busy (that seems to have other folks all worried, oh well, can't please everyone). At the threatened $0.40/minute, in the worst case where you're, what? an hour "late" back to your car, you're out of pocket twenty-four bucks on your "free" fill-up. I can cope with that level of risk.

I'm pretty sure I have already paid for the "free" fill-ups in advance.

On the other hand, presumably those of us who do long road trips etc etc will appreciate the (presumably) lower risk of arriving at a SC and finding out that we have to wait around for a stall to become available. Although this hasn't happened to me, having to wait for a half-hour to get into a stall would annoy me considerably more than having to pay $24 in fees for overstaying my own stall. Since (per the latest tweet) the fee only applies to SC locations where congestion is likely, it seems like a best-of-both-worlds choice: minimize my probability of having to queue for a charge at busy locations, but don't nickel-and-dime me with fees at idle locations.

You left off "or pay a fee". Which is really a pretty nominal one compared to (say) a half-tank of gas.

And humbug too! But I'm curious: do you have a preferred option that would minimize SC wait times? Or do you not value your time enough to care about waiting?

Yes, a longer grace period for people at chargers away from home. This would still motivate the local leeches to move (although, to be fair, you present a nice argument above that people like you will just pay to park, so this update actually perhaps does nothing but fund Tesla) and it would still provide a relaxing charge stop as promoted on their site.

I understand that this is hardly an inconvenience for many. And if these same people weren't clogging SCs to begin with, then hooray! But the questions are 1: does this new policy motivate local leeches? and 2: does this new policy avoid negatively impacting the goal of SCs for long distance EV travel?

It is unclear, as you say, that it will accomplish 1.

And I can say that it will have a negative impact on my travels with my family. In my own case, the road trip downside was the final obstacle to purchase. And now it's even worse.

 

[3s-a-charm]

This is a classic example of, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

 

[Max*]

I think this is great news.

I've went over how much charge I need for the next stop many many times, but in dozens of SpC visits and over 30k miles I don't think I've ever hit 95%+ SOC at a SpC.

ETA: no, that's not true, I did hit 100% once, I was waiting at JFK (airport) waiting for my FIL's delayed flight, and I did hit 100% SOC at the supercharger (I read here it's not possible, I wanted to try it myself, it is possible. His flight was veeeery delayed, and there was no else charging)

 

[robby]

I think this is great news.

I've went over how much charge I need for the next stop many many times, but in dozens of SpC visits and over 30k miles I don't think I've ever hit 95%+ SOC at a SpC.

ETA: no, that's not true, I did hit 100% once, I was waiting at JFK (airport) waiting for my FIL's delayed flight, and I did hit 100% SOC at the supercharger (I read here it's not possible, I wanted to try it myself, it is possible. His flight was veeeery delayed, and there was no else charging)

Yeah, my guess is most folks rarely charge beyond 80% and don't realize how long that last 20% takes. Bjorn posted a video of a full charge from 10-100 and it took 115 minutes to complete. According to that video, he could arrive with a 37.5% charge, set his charge level to 100%, walk to a place 20 minutes away, have an hour long dinner and still be back when charging completes.

Software-limited 60s are an exception because of the shorter taper. I think most folks would consider shorter charge time an advantage though, even if it means idle fees kick in sooner.

 

[TexasEV]

This move is complete bullshit for those of us who do long road trips, especially with kids or older passengers. Having to SC instead of "gas up" was a sacrifice we made in order to support Ev cars: more frequent stops and longer stops. This sacrifice was supposed to be mitigated by the conveniences located around SC's
Just don't forget to be close to your car so you can move it within 5 minutes. Nonsense.

No, you don't have to be ready to move it within 5 minutes. You know about when it will be finished charging, so just plan to be back at your car before then. You have a 5 minute grace period. If it's worth it to you to take an extra 10 minutes, then pay the few bucks. Better that then have people occupy spots for hours and you have to wait before you can plug in while on your trip that already takes longer.

 

[jgs]

people like you will just pay to park

Actually, I don't keep library books past their due date even though paying the fines would pose no financial hardship. So in that sense, I think the psychology of the "overdue fee" on busy SCs works perfectly for "people like me".

 

[disagree]

Actually, I don't keep library books past their due date even though paying the fines would pose no financial hardship. So in that sense, I think the psychology of the "overdue fee" on busy SCs works perfectly for "people like me".

It was your argument, not mine.

No, you don't have to be ready to move it within 5 minutes. You know about when it will be finished charging, so just plan to be back at your car before then. You have a 5 minute grace period. If it's worth it to you to take an extra 10 minutes, then pay the few bucks. Better that then have people occupy spots for hours and you have to wait before you can plug in while on your trip that already takes longer.

5 minutes or "hours" is a false dilemma.

Something needs to be done about supercharger squatters. Duh. But the proposed solution is too context-blind. How people structure road trips is governed largely by the locations of superchargers and environmental factors. Sometimes we have to "top-off" in a certain place because the distance to the next chance to charge requires it. Sometimes we have to charge early because of wind. Kids are jerks and need to eat.

I think a 5 minute grace period is an absurd added inconvenience for road tripping Tesla drivers (who stop for maybe an hour to eat). I leave a card with my phone number. I'd put down my fork to go move it if someone needed it. But I shouldn't have to run and move it for no reason because a bunch of people in California and uber drivers are assholes at local SCs.

 

[jgs]

It was your argument, not mine.

And you misconstrued it so I provided additional context. My perception is the proposed fee is sufficient to motivate people to move their cars when it's practical, without being draconian when it's not practical (e.g. dealing with, let's just say, a diaper emergency or other such non-maskable interrupt).

(I agree traveling with kids is labor-intensive in a way people who haven't done it mostly can't understand. That neither began, nor will it end, with the proposed fee.)

 

[FlatSix911]

What is so difficult about moving your car ... you receive notifications on the charging status at will

This move is complete bullshit for those of us who do long road trips, especially with kids or older passengers. Having to SC instead of "gas up" was a sacrifice we made in order to support Ev cars: more frequent stops and longer stops. This sacrifice was supposed to be mitigated by the conveniences located around SC's.

Just don't forget to be close to your car so you can move it within 5 minutes. Nonsense.

 

[disagree]

And you misconstrued it so I provided additional context. My perception is the proposed fee is sufficient to motivate people to move their cars when it's practical, without being draconian when it's not practical (e.g. dealing with, let's just say, a diaper emergency or other such non-maskable interrupt).

(I agree traveling with kids is labor-intensive in a way people who haven't done it mostly can't understand. That neither began, nor will it end, with the proposed fee.)

That's a reasonable take. I see where you are coming from.

We just disagree about the degree to which this proposed solution really deals with the problem it is intended to solve. I don't think it will motivate anyone inclined to squat. I might be a cynic. Uber drivers, I assume, will now move. So that's good. My guess is data would show that the greatest violators are close to home.

And as I said this is where I simply think it should be more nuanced. If I'm 1000 miles away from home, it's 10 degrees outside, and we just got served dinner... then I'll pay the idle fee, but I'll be pissed off about it.* Which isn't supposed to be part of the Tesla Experience™. I will know that it's costing me some money -- that it didn't in the past -- simply because other people are jerks about parking at their local mall. The Tesla road trip experience doesn't need more inconveniences.

Anyways, as we know with Tesla, the plan today might not be the plan tomorrow -- this new plan could go through many more iterations and tweaks and, uh, updates.



*Unless of course someone calls me and says they need the bay, in which case it's time to bundle back up. Because I'm not a dick.

 

[disagree]

What is so difficult about moving your car ... you receive notifications on the charging status at will

At root, it's an inconvenience put upon me by the selfishness of others. First of all, I don't locally supercharge so I don't have a clue about the nonsense that goes on at them. Squatters might/might not care. Local SC leeches who don't want to charge at home are still going to artificially increase SC usage and wait-times -- this plan has no impact on that.

However, I do know that having to choose between paying a fine or interrupting a meal in the middle of Nebraska 800 miles from home during a storm to move my car even if there is an empty bay is ridiculous.