An Update to our Supercharging Program

[Max*]

There is a lot of entitlement going on in this thread.

-If the supercharger is empty (I don't know how they'll determine this, 1/2 full? 2/3 full?), there is no overtime fee. Good for anyone who wants to eat a long meal.
-If the supercharger is full, you have 5 minutes to move the car and charge for free. Good for anyone waiting. Slight inconvenience for the person wanting to eat a long meal. But goes along with the intended use of the superchargers.
-If the supercharger is full, you still have 5 minutes to move the car before you have to pay, after that it's a reasonable rate. No one is forcing you to move your car, but if you want to be inconsiderate to the people waiting to charge, you will be billed at $0.40/min.

It's a win-win-win situation. I don't see what the complaining is about?

 

[jgs]

*Unless of course someone calls me and says they need the bay, in which case it's time to bundle back up. Because I'm not a dick.

This is the key to why I'm not worked up about it -- I'm taking Tesla at Elon's word that "people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park". I take this to be a restatement of your comment quoted above, or very close to it anyway (your comment means "occupancy is over 100%" and Elon's is "occupancy is near 100%" but there's not actually much air between the two).

Of course we will have to see how they execute on the promise, but that goes for everything, always.

 

[Galve2000]

I expect that the people who'll end up complaining about idle fees would largely be the same kind of people who're always late getting back to the tour bus.

Exactly!!

On the other hand, presumably those of us who do long road trips etc etc will appreciate the (presumably) lower risk of arriving at a SC and finding out that we have to wait around for a stall to become available. Although this hasn't happened to me, having to wait for a half-hour to get into a stall would annoy me considerably more than having to pay $24 in fees for overstaying my own stall.

Excellent point!

 

[sdorn]

I think the premise is fine, but the grace period should be free and last a little longer (say 10 minutes) and the fee should be in five minute increments and increase the longer you sit (say $1.00 once you hit 15 minutes and $1.00 every 5 minute increment thereafter until you hit 30 minutes, then $3.00 for every 5 minute increment thereafter). That would put you at $4 for 30 minutes, $22 for 60 minutes and $58 for two hours.

Even at gas stations people leave their car parked at the pump after they have finished pumping in order to go in and use the bathroom, get food, pay for the gas, etc. which can take 5 - 10 minutes or more. That is also the same sort of pricing structure airports use in their hourly lots to discourage people parking there long-term.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

That's a reasonable take. I see where you are coming from.

We just disagree about the degree to which this proposed solution really deals with the problem it is intended to solve. I don't think it will motivate anyone inclined to squat. I might be a cynic. Uber drivers, I assume, will now move. So that's good. My guess is data would show that the greatest violators are close to home.

And as I said this is where I simply think it should be more nuanced. If I'm 1000 miles away from home, it's 10 degrees outside, and we just got served dinner... then I'll pay the idle fee, but I'll be pissed off about it.* Which isn't supposed to be part of the Tesla Experience™. I will know that it's costing me some money -- that it didn't in the past -- simply because other people are jerks about parking at their local mall. The Tesla road trip experience doesn't need more inconveniences.

Anyways, as we know with Tesla, the plan today might not be the plan tomorrow -- this new plan could go through many more iterations and tweaks and, uh, updates.


*Unless of course someone calls me and says they need the bay, in which case it's time to bundle back up. Because I'm not a dick.

So in this 10 degree situation, you'd rather the other travelers arrive to find the stalls all full, get outside and search everyone's car hoping for contact info, call you and wait for you to come out and move your car AND then they can plug in and join you indoors? Wouldn't it be better for all fellow travelers to arrive to an available spot, plug in, and head indoors ASAP?

 

[PDFS]

I am somewhat concerned because I will sleep in my car while supercharging. When I am really tired I do not hear the phone and am afraid if I fall asleep at a SC that is empty I might sleep through the alert on the text messaging and wide up with a big bill. Recently I was supercharging and the estimated time was 50 minutes. Within 10 minutes I was sound asleep and woke myself once snoring at about the 20 minute point. The next time I woke up I was 5 minutes from the time it estimated charging would be complete. 15 minutes later under this program and that would have been an expensive nap at a SC with 8 chargers and Ihave never seen more than 3 people at a time at the SC.

I also disagree with GEO tracking to eliminate a person's ability to SC within 200 miles of their home. My MS 70 has about 14K on it right now and I took delivery in May 2016. So it is 7 months old. I drive about 30000 miles a year for work. There are days I leave home drive 90 plus miles to my first appointment then 80 plus miles to my office. Then the trip from the office to home is another 53 miles. This occurs about 3 days a month. It is not unusual on these days that I will SC one or two times depending on weather. These superchargers are all within 60 miles of my home. In the summer I am at 264 wh/mile and in the Chicago dreaded winter cold I am now at 398 wh/mile.

In the sub zero weather we are experiencing I would have to garage my MS in the winter under GEO tracking fence rule suggestion

 

[Max*]

15 minutes later under this program and that would have been an expensive nap at a SC with 8 chargers and Ihave never seen more than 3 people at a time at the SC.

EM tweeted that it wouldn't apply to empty SC's. The fees would only apply when the SpC is approaching/at capacity. No clue how they'll determine that.

 

[jgs]

The next time I woke up I was 5 minutes from the time it estimated charging would be complete. 15 minutes later under this program and that would have been an expensive nap at a SC with 8 chargers and Ihave never seen more than 3 people at a time at the SC.

1. I guess it depends what you call expensive? Let me work through the story problem: five minutes prior to charging completion, plus fifteen minutes, means nap extends ten minutes beyond charging completion. Program includes five minute grace period, so billed for five minutes overage beyond that, at forty cents a minutes, so a grand total of two dollars. I have a hard time calling that "expensive" but different strokes, I guess.

2. But anyway, under this program as amended ("We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park.") you wouldn't owe a dime in the situation you describe.

 

[MP3Mike]

Program includes five minute grace period, so billed for five minutes overage beyond that, at forty cents a minutes, so a grand total of two dollars. I have a hard time calling that "expensive" but different strokes, I guess.

The idle charges start immediately at the end of charging, but are waived if you disconnect within 5 minutes. So if he did sleep 10 minutes past the idle charge would be $4. (Assuming he was at a "mostly full" SC.)

 

[PDFS]

I agree $2.00 is not that expensive but when making along trip 1600 miles I could easily see myself in the middle of the middle of the night sleeping in the car a good hour after the charging was complete. In a crowded charging station the traffic of other cars would probably wake me but in south Texas you might be the only one in that charging station all night. I am glad this will not apply to a SC with empty slots/stations.

 

[disagree]

So in this 10 degree situation, you'd rather the other travelers arrive to find the stalls all full, get outside and search everyone's car hoping for contact info, call you and wait for you to come out and move your car AND then they can plug in and join you indoors? Wouldn't it be better for all fellow travelers to arrive to an available spot, plug in, and head indoors ASAP?

I agree! Perhaps this new plan should have been announced in a way that involved notifications about SC stall capacity and how capacity affects the onset of fees.

Here is one way your hypothetical could work out under the plan: I could stay parked there for hours laughing at people as their cars run out of juice, as long as I'm willing to pay the fee.

Here's another way: I run out to move my car and no-one else comes to the SC for 12 hours.

It would be better if the system had nuance. If I am the only car charging when I arrive, how am I to know whether idle fees will kick in or not? What will be done to prevent the "laugher" above?

Tesla rushed out the announcement.

To be clear: I don't think charging idle fees is in principle bad. But the plan as posted on the site is pretty disappointing.

 

[disagree]

There is a lot of entitlement going on in this thread.

That's a good way to start a post!

-If the supercharger is empty (I don't know how they'll determine this, 1/2 full? 2/3 full?), there is no overtime fee. Good for anyone who wants to eat a long meal.
-If the supercharger is full, you have 5 minutes to move the car and charge for free. Good for anyone waiting. Slight inconvenience for the person wanting to eat a long meal. But goes along with the intended use of the superchargers.
-If the supercharger is full, you still have 5 minutes to move the car before you have to pay, after that it's a reasonable rate. No one is forcing you to move your car, but if you want to be inconsiderate to the people waiting to charge, you will be billed at $0.40/min.

It's a win-win-win situation. I don't see what the complaining is about?

Here is the plan: Supercharger Idle Fee

Well, your first point isn't actually part of the plan. In fact the plan states:

"Do idle fees apply if there are Supercharger spots still available?
Yes, idle fees apply to any car occupying a Supercharger stall once the charge session is complete."

The tweet from Elon is nice, but unimplemented.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

I agree! Perhaps this new plan should have been announced in a way that involved notifications about SC stall capacity and how capacity affects the onset of fees.

Here is one way your hypothetical could work out under the plan: I could stay parked there for hours laughing at people as their cars run out of juice, as long as I'm willing to pay the fee.

Here's another way: I run out to move my car and no-one else comes to the SC for 12 hours.

It would be better if the system had nuance. If I am the only car charging when I arrive, how am I to know whether idle fees will kick in or not? What will be done to prevent the "laugher" above?

Tesla rushed out the announcement.

To be clear: I don't think charging idle fees is in principle bad. But the plan as posted on the site is pretty disappointing.

The nuance was already covered by Musk's follow-up tweet (see comment a few posts up).

As for your first hypothetical, that would show you to be indeed inconsiderate (and thus a liar) and can happen regardless of the new supercharger policy. But now it will cost you $24/hr to laugh at others.

And in your second hypothetical, you won't be impacted financially anyway (because the stalls are empty). However, it would be a good habit to adobt, because you aren't nostradamus and can't know that the SC won't be needed for the next 12 hours. This new policy is a much a prelude to the model 3 as it being a way to increase supercharger availability.

 

[Max*]

That's a good way to start a post!

Thanks! I thought so too.

Here is the plan: Supercharger Idle Fee

Well, your first point isn't actually part of the plan. In fact the plan states:

"Do idle fees apply if there are Supercharger spots still available?
Yes, idle fees apply to any car occupying a Supercharger stall once the charge session is complete."

The tweet from Elon is nice, but unimplemented.

I see what you're saying, but I feel like you're just trying to pick a fight/argument for the sake of... picking a fight/argument.

"We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park." Per EM on twitter. I bolded the relevant part. I agree it's not implemented yet, but if you look at the tense in his tweet, it's pretty self explanatory that it will be soon*.

*Tesla time.

 

[TexasEV]

I agree! Perhaps this new plan should have been announced in a way that involved notifications about SC stall capacity and how capacity affects the onset of fees.

Here is one way your hypothetical could work out under the plan: I could stay parked there for hours laughing at people as their cars run out of juice, as long as I'm willing to pay the fee.

I think we are all operating under the assumption that most people aren't sociopaths.

 

[Max*]

I think we are all operating under the assumption that most people aren't sociopaths.

I literally lol'ed.

 

[PDFS]

Are you sure most people are not sociopaths

 

[ecobon]

Again, people overlook the fact that there are more variables at stake than simply how many cars are at the stalls when you arrive back to unplug your vehicle. How about how many cars were at the stalls while you were away?

How about all stalls filling up and a line waiting while you were away parking and charging your vehicle? A few cars get impatient (or upset) and drive onto the next charging station instead of waiting there. Then two more vehicles leave after a quick charge of about 30 mins. You come back with 2-3 stalls open after 3-4 hours thinking that all is well. But, you get a bill at the service center that accounts for several of these occurrences throughout the year and you get upset and refuse to pay as you feel that it's untrue and unfounded.

Simple? How will the accounting be handled by Tesla with regards to when it is busy vs. empty?

As for those that want a longer grace period, the phone app will tell you that your vehicle is almost to charge level that you have set for your vehicle. Then after that, you have another 5 mins. Just how much time and/or warning do you need? I like to hit the snooze button once or maybe twice in the mornings. In my case, I set the charge level about 10% less than I need and slide it upwards accordingly.

This was the main reason I stated in a previous post to keep as simple as possible -- the original proposal was simply and easily understood with no grey area for interpretation based on time/culture/bias/etc.

 

[ecobon]

Rural areas are not very busy, yet. There will be another few hundred thousand vehicles in the next couple of years that *may* utilize the supercharger network. It can stay the way it is or get busier and congested over time. Making many changes to the rules or going back on previous rules that were implemented requires further education and more importantly, cooperation.

This is not an easy thing when there are a bunch of people with their personal needs that can easily overlook others' needs/wants. Just look outside at the shopping malls during the Holiday season to get a good indicator of how most people behave.

You want rules based on personal interpretations and needs?

Once there is a mainstream method of charging (quickly) similar to gasoline stations, all of this will be moot. Until then, the overall success of Tesla and its vehicles greatly depends on the upcoming and potential supercharger congestion issues. A high tech company handling queues in a very low tech manner!

 

[disagree]

Thanks! I thought so too.


I see what you're saying, but I feel like you're just trying to pick a fight/argument for the sake of... picking a fight/argument.

"We are going to modify this so that people only pay a fee if most bays are occupied. If the site is basically deserted, no problem to park." Per EM on twitter. I bolded the relevant part. I agree it's not implemented yet, but if you look at the tense in his tweet, it's pretty self explanatory that it will be soon*.

*Tesla time.

I'm not the one picking a fight. I said I didn't like the plan and then was attacked for my audacity to not like it. The goal of dialogue is to try to understand where someone with a different viewpoint is coming from. Reasonable people can have reasonable disagreements.

The difference between you and me (other than I'm not on fire) is that you feel comfortable with Musk's tweet. I don't. I see ambiguity and weasel words necessitated by a need to backtrack from a poorly thought out published plan. It unnerves me that such a big change was made and almost immediately was seen as flawed.

It's ok that we disagree.