Another 'Sudden Acceleration' lawsuit

[AnxietyRanger]

Possibly, we don't know if the threat was true. There was the case of the fellow with the suspension problem that made a stink and Tesla came out and stated he lived on a long dirt road and that's why his car broke, which folks on the forums were able to independently verify wasn't true. (He lived on a paved road in suburbia). Tesla never corrected that statement, and it was interesting they put it out there.

Indeed, there is a pattern emerging of Tesla quite aggressively and one-sidedly discussing customer complaints in public. This is not necessarily very good PR as I said. Tesla discussing a customer's living conditions in public sounds bad in itself. Being incorrect about it equally bad in a different way.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Possibly, we don't know if the threat was true. There was the case of the fellow with the suspension problem that made a stink and Tesla came out and stated he lived on a long dirt road and that's why his car broke, which folks on the forums were able to independently verify wasn't true. (He lived on a paved road in suburbia). Tesla never corrected that statement, and it was interesting they put it out there.

True, but that came out of the fact that the incident happened on a poorly maintained dirt road (though the owner stated he had never taken the vehicle on such a road). So, while he didn't live on a dirt road, the usage of a dirt road was directly related to the incident.

 

[Az_Rael]

True, but that came out of the fact that the incident happened on a poorly maintained dirt road (though the owner stated he had never taken the vehicle on such a road). So, while he didn't live on a dirt road, the usage of a dirt road was directly related to the incident.

True,, but the missed (easy to verify) fact in the PR statement was a bit disconcerting. Makes you wonder what other facts they might have missed in the other "he said, she said" type public responses they have been involved in. (Or it makes me wonder, at least)

 

[AnxietyRanger]

True, but that came out of the fact that the incident happened on a poorly maintained dirt road (though the owner stated he had never taken the vehicle on such a road). So, while he didn't live on a dirt road, the usage of a dirt road was directly related to the incident.

Incident happening on a dirt road (once?) vs. living in repeatedly harsh conditions is arguably quite different. But IMO the second beef there is this willigness to discuss customer complaints in such detail in public in the first place. I would argue many companies would never do that, out of respect for customer privacy in general... because it is bad PR to do so.

The problematic sentiment is it could be anyone's life conditions that are next on Tesla's corporate comms list. That's the generally troubling part. Usually companies realize their customers, unlike large companies that lead quite public existences, are private individuals and deserve certain amount of privacy as such.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

True,, but the missed (easy to verify) fact in the PR statement was a bit disconcerting. Makes you wonder what other facts they might have missed in the other "he said, she said" type public responses they have been involved in. (Or it makes me wonder, at least)

I agree that it shouldn't have been missed. But I think that misplaced fact is a bit different than completely fabricating blackmail.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Incident happening on a dirt road (once?) vs. living in repeatedly harsh conditions is arguably quite different. But IMO the second beef there is this willigness to discuss customer complaints in such detail in public in the first place. I would argue many companies would never do that, out of respect for customer privacy in general... because it is bad PR to do so..

The author was a bold-faced liar. It is unlikely that he had used that road one time...or indeed any dirt road around the area only once.

 

[Az_Rael]

Incident happening on a dirt road (once?) vs. living in repeatedly harsh conditions is arguably quite different. But IMO the second beef there is this willigness to discuss customer complaints in such detail in public in the first place. I would argue many companies would never do that, out of respect for customer privacy in general... because it is bad PR to do so.

The problematic sentiment is it could be anyone's life conditions that are next on Tesla's corporate comms list. That's the generally troubling part. Usually companies realize their customers, unlike large companies that lead quite public existences, are private individuals and deserve certain amount of privacy as such.

+1000. I hope I am never involved in a public fracas with Tesla. It's probably a good thing I don't have a new car (with the new AP hardware) that might be subject to media scrutiny if I were to be involved in an accident.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I agree that it shouldn't have been missed. But I think that misplaced fact is a bit different than completely fabricating blackmail.

There is completely fabricating (which I seriously doubt) and misleading impressions from incomplete info (much more likely). It is not impossible that the representation Tesla offered is not the full truth. It might very well be unintentionally incomplete too, if the comms is put out by a person too far removed from the actual events.

After all, the customer also has publicly disagreed with Tesla's version after it was posted. It is hard to say how it really progressed and how fair a representation "blackmail" would be.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The author was a bold-faced liar. It is unlikely that he had used that road one time...or indeed any dirt road around the area only once.

My point was not about the specifics of that case (which I know little of), just the point that if Tesla says "lived on a dirt road", it is different than Tesla saying "used a dirt road". If Tesla was inaccurate there, they could well be inaccurate other times as well.

 

[Electroman]

This is a big reason why I use "Creep".

++100

This is THE big reason why I use "Creep"

 

[disagree]

Incident happening on a dirt road (once?) vs. living in repeatedly harsh conditions is arguably quite different. But IMO the second beef there is this willigness to discuss customer complaints in such detail in public in the first place. I would argue many companies would never do that, out of respect for customer privacy in general... because it is bad PR to do so.

The problematic sentiment is it could be anyone's life conditions that are next on Tesla's corporate comms list. That's the generally troubling part. Usually companies realize their customers, unlike large companies that lead quite public existences, are private individuals and deserve certain amount of privacy as such.

A couple of points:

1. I don't know the chronology of events in these cases. If Tesla was responding to complaints already made public, then I am pretty comfortable with what I say next. If not, then I gotta rethink.

2. I tend against paranoid conclusions. So I am not inclined to conclude from "the case of the fellow and the dirt road" and "the case of the Korean celebrity" that Tesla is not respectful of customers' privacy. I can imagine that Tesla receives many, many complaints and is threatened with or engaged in litigation many, many times. This might well be exception proving the rule. So maybe we can fairly ask, "Did Tesla cross the line in either of these cases?" But we shouldn't conclude that Tesla is willy-nilly about customer info. (Me: My falcon wing door creaks. T: You promised your kids you'd take them to the zoo yesterday, but you didnt!)

 

[3Victoria]

I generally agree with @AnxietyRanger that prudence is generally good for a company. I also think that the owner in question probably believes his is the innocent party, and saving face is a big element.

However, we should realise that Tesla has many entities that wish them harm. These include individuals with personal axes to grind (shorts and others), and larger interests that encourage and fund misinformation and attacks on Tesla. In such a hostile environment Tesla can perhaps be forgiven for defending their reputation more than your average corporation.

 

[oktane]

Why not share the logs with the customer? Is it not his car and therefore his data?

 

[JohnSnowNW]

My point was not about the specifics of that case (which I know little of), just the point that if Tesla says "lived on a dirt road", it is different than Tesla saying "used a dirt road". If Tesla was inaccurate there, they could well be inaccurate other times as well.

Certainly possible, but where I disagree is in the inaccuracy having an impact on the truth.

And, again, I don't see a comparison between the two instances. Son, either blackmailed Tesla or he didn't...and if he didn't then Tesla is doing much worse than incorrectly mapping the location of a dirt road.

 

[Ulmo]

“For example, the vehicle will cut motor torque in cases where the accelerator pedal and the brake pedal are simultaneously pressed. Furthermore, current Tesla software uses the Autopilot sensor suite to distinguish potential pedal misapplication events from normal cases when a driver intentionally presses the accelerator pedal. In cases of unambiguous pedal misapplication, the vehicle cuts torque to mitigate the effects of the driver’s error.”

Is this why sometimes when I press the accelerator, it does nothing? It has plenty of false positives, if so.

If you're discussing the above, my understanding is that Tesla's systems are designed to prioritize driver input. That is, you can override the automatic safety systems by, say, pushing the go pedal to the floor. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here.

I have attempted to use that methodology to overcome it before, and it seemed to work, so anecdotal very small sample size subject to my own memory failure says yes. It also scared me that it worked. Here's why:

This scares me. That would train us in a Microsoft-Windows way ("always try again") to always try to override the false positive protection state by flooring it, and as a result, there could be some usual circumstances in which a driver will get used to hitting override, and then if they make the smallest of goofs (for instance, in a prior message I described how the Tesla shifter is opposite the standard and it is easy to put the car in the wrong direction) they would have catastrophic outcomes.

I am aware of these protectionism accident amplifications, so I am ultra paranoid about startup in my Tesla just for these exact reasons and possible others. It gets especially annoying when I'm being this careful and a mom lets her two foot six inch daughter repeatedly go into and out of the area in which I need to drive: I'm checking left, I'm checking right, I'm checking back, I'm checking forward, where's the daughter? Oh, she disappeared in front of me again. GRR have to restart whole process, but this time using superpowers to see if the child has another friend or sibling who is also hiding in my blind spots. Next time this happens, I might just give up, put the car in park, and leave a note in my car (usually parked at a charger) "gone until children stop playing in my blind spots" and come back 15 minutes later. I really really want a visual of 360º around my car, not just backup camera. I wonder if the new Tesla Vision cameras have that capability to deliver to my big screen.

I generally agree with @AnxietyRanger that prudence is generally good for a company. I also think that the owner in question probably believes his is the innocent party, and saving face is a big element.

However, we should realise that Tesla has many entities that wish them harm. These include individuals with personal axes to grind (shorts and others), and larger interests that encourage and fund misinformation and attacks on Tesla. In such a hostile environment Tesla can perhaps be forgiven for defending their reputation more than your average corporation.

I agree. And often problems aren't alone. It could be more of these types things happening at the same time. Usually, a bunch of false things mixed in with a few true things, or a bunch of true things mixed in with a false thing or two. Sometimes, it's all false or all true. But your warning is correct.

 

[Ulmo]

This is a big reason why I use "Creep". Put it in gear, it starts to go. If I'm wrong, I'm not pushing the accelerator, and my foot is automatically on the brake. Yes I'm older* and have driven lot's of other cars and transmission styles too.

FWIW, one other thing that "Creep" helps me with, is that the Tesla doesn't have an On/Off button like an ICE. Several times I've moved the PRND stalk and waited for the car to move, to only realize that the car just "Turned On"...

*In reference to someone else's post about this seems to be a problem with older folks (I'm paraphrasing), not to you (@Ulmo) specifically.

I'm going to try this. Thanks. I was initially opposed, since I thought I'd learn "the new way", and since I had gotten fairly used to manual transmissions (first as truck driver, then later as owner of a few manual transmission cars (a Volvo 245 and a Honda Civic)) which also did not creep. But, wisdom is the right choice in safety. I think the mental programming to re-learn creep will have a safer and more determinable outcome than the no-creep mode I was learning. (Great, I have to set this in every one of my profiles.)

There's a clear difference between manual transmission stick shifts and Tesla's no-creep mode: in the stick shift, I can supposedly physically feel the direction in which I'm putting the stick (sometimes it is hard to translate its position into a direction, and I have put it into the wrong gear on pretty much every manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven while negotiating parking lots, but at least I'm aware of that possibility and start up slowly; manufacturers actually give stick shifts a different feel when entering Reverse rather than a forward gear on purpose just for this safety purpose, and that reminds us that manufacturers could opt not to give it this different feel and that would make it even more dangerous by far).

I already know the first conflict I'll have to learn in creep mode is on large counterforce situations, in which the car rolls in the direction of the counterforce (gravity, wind, some foreign object pushing on my car) rather than its creep force. But, I am aware of that, and was aware of that on automatic transmission cars for a very long time (and manual transmission cars in extreme counterforce situations (hill -- I had many of these as truck driver)). I'm actually slightly interested to know whether Tesla has programmed these out of creep mode on its own (magical use of braking and motor force come to mind as some techniques, although I prefer brake, because the potential for mishap if using motor force if the counterforce becomes dislodged is frightening, and any fast act motor reaction to force variants would have to be bugless, instant, and not failure prone (holding maneuver, probably something SpaceX does a lot in real life)).

 

[GoTslaGo]

Yes, I thought that the manual transmission experience would help with non-Creep, but then I realized that a lot of my fine "movements" of the car with a manual was modulated by the two foot "dance" of the gas and the clutch. Without actuating the clutch, the little movements of the car became awkward to me.

Thus I decided to go entirely with the Creep to simulate an automatic transmission. Especially since the pedal layout and lack of a clutch makes my hind-brain and muscle memory go in that direction.

 

[wesley888]

I reach for the shift stalk in the middle of the console every day. When I first got the car, I was reaching for an F, R, D, or P button on the dash. Neither had anything. Instead, where the windshield wiper is on most cars, is the shifter for the Tesla (I can't even memorize what order it is in right now).

LOL. I felt the same thing. I even switched my car to Neutral while driving, when I meant to just have a quite wipe using the windshield wiper!

 

[Ulmo]

LOL. I felt the same thing. I even switched my car to Neutral while driving, when I meant to just have a quite wipe using the windshield wiper!

Yes, unfortunately, I've done this about 5 times already. Hopefully, that goes away in about 6 months. I'm mentally training myself, hopefully it goes away in a few days.

 

[FlatSix911]

This is getting really interesting ... and this guy is doubling down on his version of the truth

After launching his Model X into his own living room, Tesla owner launches into smear campaign against Tesla

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