Another way to think about the bigger battery options.

[ArtInCT]

If your use case for the car includes cold winter months, you will want as large a battery as you can afford. The Tesla battery management system uses power to warm up the battery in cold weather while running to get the pack to operating temperatures. This and the frigid weather does reduce the overall efficiency of the pack from about 10% to 20% depending upon just how cold soaked the battery is. You can mitigate this by precondition the pack by turning on the HVAC system to warm the car's interior while on 40 Amp shore power. This will also warm up the pack... 110v will just not cut it.

Many short trips in cold weather with 1 hour stops in between trip legs, and not connected to shore power, is just about the worst case. You heat the battery and then let it cool down and then reheat etc etc

If however, you happen to live in a climate that does not present cold weather you can kind of ignore the above.

BTW, cold weather is 40F to or below freezing.... I know the definition of cold can vary based upon what you are used to in your experiences.

BTW, it could be possible that the Model 3's battery management system will be evolved in this area so you will need to pay attention to this technology.

 

[Cloxxki]

Use does not equate to abuse. What would you do about the 'teams' of door-to-door salesmen, insurance agents, real estate agents, pizza delivery dudes, and everyone else that uses their personal vehicles for business? Besides, if you are paying attention, Tesla Motors themselves intends to make it 'worth your while' to 'hire out' your car some day. C'mon, MAN!

So how much would you wager that a purchased reasonably priced Tesla with features to facilitate hire it out would come with unlimited lifetime supercharging? Be realistic, MAN!

 

[Red Sage]

So how much would you wager that a purchased reasonably priced Tesla with features to facilitate hire it out would come with unlimited lifetime supercharging? Be realistic, MAN!

I don't wager on the internet for the same reason I don't wager on a basketball court. People want to cry foul and accuse me of being a 'ringer' when I beat them. So rather than fighting over money, I'd rather play for fun. I suspect that the 'hiring' function would be almost universally available on autonomous cars that will have the 'FREE (of additional fees) for LIFE (the life of the car)!' option. The Metal Gear Solid Supercharger Snakebots are gonna be fun to watch! There is a distinct difference between realism and pessimism. ...MAN!

 

[Cloxxki]

I think there is a difference between realism and blind optimism/brand religion.

Tesla are not in the business of giving away energy they paid for. They are (getting into) the business of selling you solar panels so you don't need to get the energy from them. Perhaps the energy you send up the grid from your panels can be redeemed at superchargers. Perhaps superchargers will be cheaper/kWh than other options. Perhaps a car will come with 5 years worth of SC, as long as you stay under 20% of your energy coming from SC, for instance.
5 years from now there will be mre significant competition. If Model 3 is to compete with a similar spec Golf/Leon/Civic which doesn't come with free energy, it will be a hard cut in the bottom line to offer any amount of energy for free. Same goes for unlimited energy at a fixed rate, let alone when there are ways offered to keep the car occupied as possible.

 

[dsvick]

Tesla are not in the business of giving away energy they paid for. They are (getting into) the business of selling you solar panels so you don't need to get the energy from them.

The problem with your solar power arguement is that first they are quite a bit more expensive than I see the SC option ever being, and second, they aren't available everywhere - I can't get SolarCity in where I am in Ohio. So, while that might be their ultimate goal, they are nowhere near fulfilling it yet.

You're right though, they won't give it away for free, you're still paying for it, you're just not paying anything beyond whatever the initial cost is. I firmly believe that they've been going over all the SC use data they have for the last several years and they know who has and hasn't been using it, how much they've been using it, and where. I'm sure they have people there that are smart enough to come up with a plan and pricing so that the people that will really use it will still find it a good value and so that Tesla won't be giving anything away.

 

[Red Sage]

5 years from now there will be [more] significant competition.

Wait... Did you say 'significant competition'...? HA! See? That's a level of optimism I absolutely do NOT share!

 

[Cloxxki]

I firmly believe that they've been going over all the SC use data they have for the last several years and they know who has and hasn't been using it, how much they've been using it, and where. I'm sure they have people there that are smart enough to come up with a plan and pricing so that the people that will really use it will still find it a good value and so that Tesla won't be giving anything away.

I agree. But how would Tesla-facilitated car sharing affect their metrics? A low cost Tesla such as the Model 3, if it would come with any fixed price lifetime free SC, even if just for 3 years or so, is THE most abuse-inviting thing. Would they want to average the price out so everyone pays the same (high) SC fee, just to let Uber teams have a chance at undercutting all other vehicles? Pay per kWh with limited expiration is not only fair, but actually a cash flow improvement for these Uber teams and the like. You spend a year or more to make up the $x000 you'd otherwise pay up front. Likely with car loan interest.

 

[Red Sage]

I agree. But how would Tesla-facilitated car sharing affect their metrics? A low cost Tesla such as the Model 3, if it would come with any fixed price lifetime free SC, even if just for 3 years or so, is THE most abuse-inviting thing. Would they want to average the price out so everyone pays the same (high) SC fee, just to let Uber teams have a chance at undercutting all other vehicles? Pay per kWh with limited expiration is not only fair, but actually a cash flow improvement for these Uber teams and the like. You spend a year or more to make up the $x000 you'd otherwise pay up front. Likely with car loan interest.

I find it astounding how many different creative means to be somehow 'fair' all look to me as if they... aren't.

 

[Cloxxki]

I find it astounding how many different creative means to be somehow 'fair' all look to me as if they... aren't.

Fair to you is Tesla paying for all your energy because you bought a beat up second hand car with their badge?
Does GM hand out life time free petrol, at any cost? Free car washes? One year? Free road trip biscuits? Maybe a free sticker for your kid.
You expect free energy forever, for free, even when Tesla's margin come under pressure from maturing competition. Which is not only inevitable, but openly welcomed.

 

[timk225]

If your use case for the car includes cold winter months, you will want as large a battery as you can afford. The Tesla battery management system uses power to warm up the battery in cold weather while running to get the pack to operating temperatures. This and the frigid weather does reduce the overall efficiency of the pack from about 10% to 20% depending upon just how cold soaked the battery is. You can mitigate this by precondition the pack by turning on the HVAC system to warm the car's interior while on 40 Amp shore power. This will also warm up the pack... 110v will just not cut it.

Many short trips in cold weather with 1 hour stops in between trip legs, and not connected to shore power, is just about the worst case. You heat the battery and then let it cool down and then reheat etc etc

If however, you happen to live in a climate that does not present cold weather you can kind of ignore the above.

BTW, cold weather is 40F to or below freezing.... I know the definition of cold can vary based upon what you are used to in your experiences.

BTW, it could be possible that the Model 3's battery management system will be evolved in this area so you will need to pay attention to this technology.

Doesn't the Tesla BMS allow you to set it to keep the battery warmed to a certain temperature all the time, regardless of it is plugged in at home or sitting in a parking lot, drawing power from the battery?

 

[ArtInCT]

Doesn't the Tesla BMS allow you to set it to keep the battery warmed to a certain temperature all the time, regardless of it is plugged in at home or sitting in a parking lot, drawing power from the battery?

Instead if giving you a lengthy answer, I will point you to this thread....Understanding the battery heater

Also, there are some wonderful threads (rather old but these threads show how the folks here on TMC came to grips with understanding the battery and preheating without much if any help from Tesla) on preheating the main traction battery. Perhaps Model 3 will have some functionality to do this all by itself... today on the S and X... not so much.

 

[Red Sage]

Hey, look, everyone! It's a continuous stream of leading rhetorical questions asked as if there can be no well reasoned response! Such a joy!

Fair to you is Tesla paying for all your energy because you bought a beat up second hand car with their badge?

No, not 'all'. I'm pretty sure I never said that. The presumption is that the grand majority of owners will charge their vehicles at home. Yes, even as a third party purchase of a pre-owned vehicle.

Does GM hand out life time free petrol, at any cost?

General Motors' Customers in the US are the 'independent franchised dealerships' and about the only thing they do for 'free' on their behalf is advertising, marketing, and promotion. Costs that certainly exceed the amount per vehicle to build, maintain, and administer the Supercharger network.

Free car washes?

In the Great State of California even the various 'independent franchised dealerships' that had been giving 'FREE Car Washes!' to their Service Customers have been ordered to stop due to extended drought conditions so that they may conserve water. But no, that has not been a service provided by any OEM to my knowledge.

One year?

Not even one minute. Though I do remember an advertisement for the Dodge Magnum R/T gas guzzler wagon some years ago where they would give the owner an equivalent to one year of free fuel costs in cash.

Free road trip biscuits?

I like cookies. There are numerous reports that Tesla Stores provide not only cookies, but coffee as well at their locations. I doubt they are meant for road trips, though you could certainly load up your pockets while no one is looking.

Maybe a free sticker for your kid.

The problem with giving stickers to children is that they will undoubtedly stick them in the worst possible place and then never look at them again.

You expect free energy forever, for free, even when Tesla's margin come under pressure from maturing competition.

That seems like an accusation that assumes facts not in evidence... Oh, wait! That's EXACTLY what it is!

Which is not only inevitable, but openly welcomed.

I perceive the appearance of viable competition to Tesla Motors efforts brought to market by traditional automobile manufacturers as being inevitably deferred, delayed, and postponed. Over and over again, they announce fully electric 'concept cars' -- business as usual -- as I have noted for around thirty years straight. What I expect, and have noted before, is that some of them will continue to 'Wait and See...' until their own demise, others will stick with Hybrids and compliance cars using loopholes to increase their Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) ratings, and a very few will make minimal efforts to offer rather compromised fully electric cars for the next decade or so. In general they will always act as if their end users simply MUST have an ICE vehicle and that the electric car will be their second or third car, even well after it is proven that is not a necessary fact.

 

[ecarfan]

Doesn't the Tesla BMS allow you to set it to keep the battery warmed to a certain temperature all the time, regardless of it is plugged in at home or sitting in a parking lot, drawing power from the battery?

No it does not. And there is no need to offer the user that capability. .The Tesla BMS constantly monitors the state of the battery while the car is at rest and while driving and manages the battery temperature, maximum current draw, and current input (regen) as it deems appropriate. You don't need to concern yourself with monitoring the battery temperature.

And the Tesla BMS appears to do a remarkably good job. See Tesloop Ran Model S 200,000 Miles — What Did They Learn? The company that offers Model S transportation LA to Las Vegas says that after operating the car for 200,000 miles and doing daily 100% charges the range loss was only 6%. That is amazingly low battery degradation for that extreme type of use. Typically, Tesla owners rarely charge to 100% (it simply isn't needed) and range loss is around 3% at 100,000 miles.