Anti-EV comments heard on my roadtrip so far

Having visited 44/50 US states and 250/424 US national parks in the past year in my LR Model 3, I’ve heard a lot of dumb questions.
Here are a few. (Links go to my non-commercial Wordpress blog about my EV parks travels without ads).
“What do you do about rain and puddles? Is that thing even waterproof?” — owner who saw me park in front of his Wyoming hotel in the rain.
“Well, those things don’t have much range” — heard through my EV car window in Teddy Roosevelt ND, Canyon de Chelly AZ, Gila Cliff Dwellings NM, Great Basin NV, Big Hole MT, Sand Creek Massacre CO, Dinosaur UT, Nicodemus KS, etc.
“Costs about the same to fill up as my truck, right?” — guy putting 35 gallons into his Ford F250 at $6 per gallon in California last year.
“But don’t you miss the romance? I love the roar, vibration, and sheer power of my Mustang.” — dude at red light before I hit 60 mph in 3 seconds.
“What do you do when you’re charging?” — discussion at Starbucks, burger joint, rest room, hotel, campground, museum, and while watching base jumpers at Snake River Canyon in ID.
“How do I plug in?” — unfortunate couple at remote TX Supercharger who rented a non-Tesla from Hertz without the slightest clue about EV’s, nor cables, nor adapters, nor PlugShare. But they were Premium Hertz members.
Interested how many of you hear similar comments about EV’s.

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[JB47394]

I see this all the time. Everything chugs along tickety boo, until one little glitch, data mismatch, anything goes wrong, and fortunately in my field, a system failure doesn't kill anyone.

Ah, but there's the rub; you don't work in safety-critical systems. The development practices are different.

You want autonomous vehicles? Fine. As long as they operate in their own enclosed non jumpable barrier equipped motorways.

I'd like the same restriction for a whole lot of people driving cars today.

As for AI in general, it's going to happen. I don't have 60 years in technology, but I have 40. The one thing that had been missing from the AI field is a tool that can detect arbitrary patterns. Neural networks can do that (now that we have the computing power). Not only that, but they can generate arbitrary outputs. We're still in the stone age of AI, but I fully expect that the next 20 years will see every field of human endeavor being bolstered it. I hope you will be around to witness it.

 

[dachshund]

I posit that this will not happen in my lifetime. I have worked for 60 years in technology, nowadays computers and automation. It's like the little girl with a curl. When she was good she was very very good. But when she was bad, she was horrible.
..
The concept of FSD is interesting, and I guess my hat's off to the brave souls who take their life into their hands, as did Neil Armstrong, Chuck Yeager and other brave souls. But they weren't coming at me at 80 miles an hour.

You want autonomous vehicles? Fine. As long as they operate in their own enclosed non jumpable barrier equipped motorways.

I don't have an informed opinion, but it will be interesting to see this unfold. The idea of a huge semi driving autonomously is kind of scary, maybe because my FSDb can be scary sometimes and I feel that it has a long way to go. Given my choice of avatar, I think the Tesla semi is quite an impressive vehicle and I root for seeing more of them on the road. But I don't think they're long range enough for diesel drivers.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

It's like the little girl with a curl. When she was good she was very very good. But when she was bad, she was horrible.

AND ... she won't look like that when it all goes to court!


I tend to agree, that the goal of door to door FSD is a step too far and that a better route would be to have specific roads where FSD was allowed - something like an interstate where lane markings, signage and physical road layout would have to meet certain very strict standards and would need repeated recertification, and maybe had readers and other electronic aids posted along the route and you wouldn't be able to drive on them unless your car had a specific box installed so it could talk to the road and other road users

 

[JB47394]

I tend to agree, that the goal of door to door FSD is a step too far and that a better route would be to have specific roads where FSD was allowed - something like an interstate where lane markings, signage and physical road layout would have to meet certain very strict standards and would need repeated recertification, and maybe had readers and other electronic aids posted along the route and you wouldn't be able to drive on them unless your car had a specific box installed so it could talk to the road and other road users

What you're describing is a non-starter because it involves the cooperation of too many people. Trying to organize the standards and review by government bodies would be a nightmare that would run out for decades and result in a useless mess. Politicians and innovation rarely share the same space.

I'm no automation expert, but based on what I've seen, it looks like the automation systems are processing-limited and so rely on accurate map data to be able to plan their navigation and movement in real time. The geofenced systems are the ones that have made sure they have accurate map data for their geofenced area. Tesla, in true Elon fashion, just dove in with whatever map data they had. That results in pretty good behavior most of the time, but FSD consistently does stupid things at particular places because the map data is flawed. Or so I believe.

The other big area of annoyance with FSD is its hesitation. I attribute this to the legal problem of hitting something. It's okay to slam on the brakes and let another car hit a Tesla. It's not okay for a Tesla to drive into another car, pedestrian or other "vulnerable road users". That's the way the law is set up; I can be hesitant without breaking the law, and that's what FSD does.

It would be interesting to see how FSD does in a simulated environment where it has perfectly accurate map data and has the gloves come off, allowing it to just go, without worrying about hitting stuff. How would it perform? Under what circumstances would hit hit something? I know that Tesla can run simulations like that and I'd love to find out if they've done that and what the results were.

 

[drdumont]

What you're describing is a non-starter because it involves the cooperation of too many people. Trying to organize the standards and review by government bodies would be a nightmare that would run out for decades and result in a useless mess. Politicians and innovation rarely share the same space.

I'm no automation expert, but based on what I've seen, it looks like the automation systems are processing-limited and so rely on accurate map data to be able to plan their navigation and movement in real time. The geofenced systems are the ones that have made sure they have accurate map data for their geofenced area. Tesla, in true Elon fashion, just dove in with whatever map data they had. That results in pretty good behavior most of the time, but FSD consistently does stupid things at particular places because the map data is flawed. Or so I believe.

The other big area of annoyance with FSD is its hesitation. I attribute this to the legal problem of hitting something. It's okay to slam on the brakes and let another car hit a Tesla. It's not okay for a Tesla to drive into another car, pedestrian or other "vulnerable road users". That's the way the law is set up; I can be hesitant without breaking the law, and that's what FSD does.

It would be interesting to see how FSD does in a simulated environment where it has perfectly accurate map data and has the gloves come off, allowing it to just go, without worrying about hitting stuff. How would it perform? Under what circumstances would hit hit something? I know that Tesla can run simulations like that and I'd love to find out if they've done that and what the results were.

Well said. Thanks!

 

[EVer Hopeful]

What you're describing is a non-starter because it involves the cooperation of too many people. Trying to organize the standards and review by government bodies would be a nightmare that would run out for decades and result in a useless mess. Politicians and innovation rarely share the same space.

Well your point is not invalid, but then again the US managed to create a unified airspace over the country, and the Interstate highway system seems to be fairly well established and standardised. Electricity uses the NEC and standard outlets and so on


I think another mistake we make about FSD is that it has to be 100% perfect. That'd obviously be nice, but in reality, all it has to do is be better than the current system where humans do all the driving ... so not such a high bar after all

 

[JB47394]

Well your point is not invalid, but then again the US managed to create a unified airspace over the country, and the Interstate highway system seems to be fairly well established and standardised. Electricity uses the NEC and standard outlets and so on

Sure, but the political and regulatory environment in place for comparable efforts was quite different from today.

I think another mistake we make about FSD is that it has to be 100% perfect. That'd obviously be nice, but in reality, all it has to do is be better than the current system where humans do all the driving ... so not such a high bar after all

I use the same argument when this comes up. However, the statistics have to be overwhelmingly in favor of automation for now. At least from Tesla. You've seen how the media pounces on the idea that a Tesla using automation killed somebody.

Then there's the question of how people's driving habits would change if everyone had FSD, even in its current form. Phone use in cars would skyrocket. Then we'd have the cat and mouse game of auto makers trying to monitor drivers, and drivers trying to defeat that monitoring.

I was shocked to see that 7,500 people are injured in over 14,000 separate accidents - every day. Imagine the consequences of really good driving automation software. It would seriously impact the involvement of tow trucks, ambulances, body shops, emergency rooms, physical therapists, junk yards, etc... Then there's changes to car insurance, fewer lost hours at work for the people injured and for the people stuck in traffic due to an accident. In 2019, NHTSA said that car accidents cost America $340 billion. They didn't actually "cost" that, but it was money that went to tow trucks, ambulances, body shops, etc.

 

[henderrj]

AND ... she won't look like that when it all goes to court!


I tend to agree, that the goal of door to door FSD is a step too far and that a better route would be to have specific roads where FSD was allowed - something like an interstate where lane markings, signage and physical road layout would have to meet certain very strict standards and would need repeated recertification, and maybe had readers and other electronic aids posted along the route and you wouldn't be able to drive on them unless your car had a specific box installed so it could talk to the road and other road users

Isn't that what Ford, GM and other companies are doing? They hypermap certain routes and on those only do they allow their autonomous driving. It may be a workable solution, might end up being the best. But I can understand why Tesla wanted more autonomous routing that doesn't require pre-mapping to work. And can still work should the route change, I.e for construction.

 

[PEMDAS]

Maybe a dumb comment, but the US does not have 400+ National Parks.
The comments I hear often are half-questions half-claims "but this is the car to just go around city, right?"

"The National Park System encompasses 424 national park sites in the United States. They span across more than 84 million acres, with parks in each state and extending into the territories, including parks in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam."

How Many National Parks are There?

The National Park System encompasses 424 national park sites in the United States. They span across more than 84 million acres, with parks in each state and extending into the territories, including parks in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam. The home of civil rights…

www.nationalparks.org

 

[Lost Petrol]

I'm in the deep south and don't see many Tesla's around. When I told them I had a Tesla on order, I got comments like

- The steering wheels fall of on those things
- Batteries explode
- Autopilot will kill you
- Need to replace your battery every 3 years and pay $20,000
- We are not installing a charger for you to charge at work (my manager)
- Tesla turned off the supercharger feature and you have to pay extra to use it now.
- Elon is a douche
- Charging takes hours
And some more I can't remember now.

Those are the people who a hundred years ago would have been yelling, "Get a horse!"

 

[kpanda17]

I think we are at finishing a period in time where most early adopters have purchased or are about to purchase EVs. We are now at the beginning point in time where the bulk of the public is curious but not convinced EVs are any good for any reason, sustainability, range, reliability, etc. This is the hardest group to win over for they are the biggest group and with attitudes, pre conceived notions. The last group will be the laggers.
The rumors are that Tesla will release late summer or early fall 2023, a new M3 LR with CATL M3P batteries and the range will be over 400 miles. Between the amazing Tesla eco system and range above 400, more of the main group of potential EV buyers should come in. Only time can tell.

 

[JB47394]

We are now at the beginning point in time where the bulk of the public is curious but not convinced EVs are any good for any reason, sustainability, range, reliability, etc. This is the hardest group to win over for they are the biggest group and with attitudes, pre conceived notions.

There's no problem with interest waning as polls tend to state that about a third of people are interested in buying an electric car (skewed towards liberals and away from conservatives, perhaps obviously). The things standing in the way are cost and availability. both of which are part and parcel of the early days of any new product. Cost will come down and availability will improve. There will certainly be people who are laggards. Those who don't trust new gadgets, those who have a vested interest in the status quo, and those who are dead-set against anything endorsed by "those people".

 

[Unclepaul]

Currently both sides are right...for them.

There are area where gas is best, diesel is best, mass transportation is best and electric is best.

Same with boats. Sometimes power is best, other times sail is best.

With Theater, sometime live performance is best, other times watching on TV will be the preference.

Trying to argue that Electric is best in every possible situation is a fools errand.

Change is hard, but it is inevidable that for personal transportation, electricity will be the choice of the future.

 

[GoVols!]

There's no problem with interest waning as polls tend to state that about a third of people are interested in buying an electric car (skewed towards liberals and away from conservatives, perhaps obviously). The things standing in the way are cost and availability. both of which are part and parcel of the early days of any new product. Cost will come down and availability will improve. There will certainly be people who are laggards. Those who don't trust new gadgets, those who have a vested interest in the status quo, and those who are dead-set against anything endorsed by "those people".

As a proud Conservative and knowing plenty others who are, we are very much into the idea of owning an EV. The problem for me and others, is the reliability aspect and range above all else. For instance, my daughters iPhone died last night and she’s pretty much screwed without it at her University because all her assignments/grades are accessed through her MacBook and then is required to receive some kind of COIN code on her iPhone to approve it. It’s freaking ridiculous and not only that, to access her dorm, she has to use her phone. Thank goodness, I was able to get an Apple appointment today but this brings me back to EV’s. They are not so different from the iPhone when I read these forums about issues with bricking, not charging properly, can be noisy, constant service appointments, complicated drive modes, endless configuration pages through UI, FWD hitting garage ceilings/etc…etc.

I had MX on order and cancelled it recently because it feels like Tesla isn’t throwing the kitchen sink at quality over fast production times. Believe me, I really want an MX but holding off to see if they get any better with park assist and figuring out the FWD sensor situation. Last thing I want to worry about is whether the FWD is going hit something and cause damage.

 

[drdumont]

As a proud Conservative and knowing plenty others who are, we are very much into the idea of owning an EV. The problem for me and others, is the reliability aspect and range above all else. For instance, my daughters iPhone died last night and she’s pretty much screwed without it at her University because all her assignments/grades are accessed through her MacBook and then is required to receive some kind of COIN code on her iPhone to approve it. It’s freaking ridiculous and not only that, to access her dorm, she has to use her phone. Thank goodness, I was able to get an Apple appointment today but this brings me back to EV’s. They are not so different from the iPhone when I read these forums about issues with bricking, not charging properly, can be noisy, constant service appointments, complicated drive modes, endless configuration pages through UI, FWD hitting garage ceilings/etc…etc.

I had MX on order and cancelled it recently because it feels like Tesla isn’t throwing the kitchen sink at quality over fast production times. Believe me, I really want an MX but holding off to see if they get any better with park assist and figuring out the FWD sensor situation. Last thing I want to worry about is whether the FWD is going hit something and cause damage.

Really sorry to see you are disillusioned and have canceled your order for a Model X.
"Bricking" and all the rest of the FUD? PLEASE make sure you are up to date and getting the truth and not enveloped in the cesspool of the FUDI Mongers. Sounds like you may be in that cesspool of misinformation.
If you are waiting for the FSD and the rest of the self drive vaporware, you are cheating yourself out of a really nice experience.
I wholeheartedly suggest you visit a Tesla showroom and take a good look at a new Tesla. Or if you are in one of the Pleistocene era states as am I where you cannot purchase a Tesla directly, rent a new one from a TURO operator for a couple of days. If you find one with a new car, discuss the delivery issues if any with him.
I hate so see someone waste the opportunity for a truly fine car over vaporware and really non necessary stuff. After all, you can upgrade to FSD or the Mid Grade FSD at any time for the same price. WHo knows, you just might enjoy having an extra $15K to spend on something viable

 

[GoVols!]

Really sorry to see you are disillusioned and have canceled your order for a Model X.
"Bricking" and all the rest of the FUD? PLEASE make sure you are up to date and getting the truth and not enveloped in the cesspool of the FUDI Mongers. Sounds like you may be in that cesspool of misinformation.
If you are waiting for the FSD and the rest of the self drive vaporware, you are cheating yourself out of a really nice experience.
I wholeheartedly suggest you visit a Tesla showroom and take a good look at a new Tesla. Or if you are in one of the Pleistocene era states as am I where you cannot purchase a Tesla directly, rent a new one from a TURO operator for a couple of days. If you find one with a new car, discuss the delivery issues if any with him.
I hate so see someone waste the opportunity for a truly fine car over vaporware and really non necessary stuff. After all, you can upgrade to FSD or the Mid Grade FSD at any time for the same price. WHo knows, you just might enjoy having an extra $15K to spend on something viable

Not sure how to take your comment but it seems pretty rude. If this was meant to be some kind of dig because of my beliefs, it’s absolutely know wonder why people can’t get along with those who choose to have a difference of opinion. I have liberal friends and we go on being friends. I live in Tennessee and we have two Tesla service centers that I am aware of. I have test driven the MYP and MYLR in the last two months, with an upcoming test drive of a MX next week.

I am basing my knowledge of the issues Tesla and other EV’s may have from this forum, other ev forums and current owners in my area(neighborhood,friends).

You can choose to move from your current state. We are all free to live elsewhere. My wife left her practice and my great job(now retired) in the Bay Area to get out of that tax you to death state. You only live once, find a happier place.

The FSD is not what I am after, it’s better options “safety features) inline with value compared to competitors. I have already committed to buying a Tesla because I do believe they are currently the best option. I looked at the ixm60 but couldn’t get over the exterior looks. Plus the center console isn’t ideal. The Rivian was option but not thrilled with passenger dash hitting my tall wife’s knees unless the seat t is pushed back and then my kids will lose leg space.

I think EV’s get a bad wrap more so because their are people who are so fanatical about them they throw shade at ice owners, which then causes more negative feelings about evs. It’s like me as a Christian going around shaming “Bible thumping” people for not being a believer and some so called “Christians” do this and give Jesus a bad name. Ev evangelist do the exact same thing. You want to bring people into the fold, show them some grace and you’ll be surprised how people will want to hear what you have to say. Just my .02

 

[JB47394]

As a proud Conservative and knowing plenty others who are, we are very much into the idea of owning an EV. The problem for me and others, is the reliability aspect and range above all else. For instance, my daughters iPhone died last night and she’s pretty much screwed without it at her University because all her assignments/grades are accessed through her MacBook and then is required to receive some kind of COIN code on her iPhone to approve it. It’s freaking ridiculous and not only that, to access her dorm, she has to use her phone. Thank goodness, I was able to get an Apple appointment today but this brings me back to EV’s. They are not so different from the iPhone when I read these forums about issues with bricking, not charging properly, can be noisy, constant service appointments, complicated drive modes, endless configuration pages through UI, FWD hitting garage ceilings/etc…etc.

I would invite you to spend some time watching EV myth busting videos on YouTube. Realize that Tesla has annoyed a LOT of vested interests, and they've been spreading a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about this technology. Oil companies, legacy auto companies, auto dealerships and even traditional media are all upset at Tesla because the company bypasses all of them. That takes money out of their pockets and they are not happy about that. That misinformation has become entrenched in the public consciousness; it's everywhere.

You mentioned reliability, which is ironic given that EVs are insanely reliable by nature. The drive train is electric motors and solid state electronics - very reliable technologies. The vehicles require almost no maintenance. They go through tires about 20% faster than an ICEV, and that's about it.

Also, I don't see any viable comparison between an iPhone and a BEV. An iPhone is designed to wear out in a couple years while a BEV is designed to wear out in 10-15. The Tesla battery warranty covers 8 years (or 150,000 miles), so you can be sure they'll last much longer (on average). The difference is the size of the battery pack and the fact that the Tesla battery has an entire electronics system devoted to keeping it as healthy as possible. Note that they're saying that the battery will deliver a certain amount of power after 8 years, not that it'll still work after 8. It'll probably work after 50, but no longer be able to store usable amounts of energy.

I wouldn't fret too much about the problems that you see described in the forums here. Unless you see an article in the press about wheels falling off the car, it's just a one-off problem. Every product has bad copies, and Teslas are no different. That said, I have a feeling that Tesla is trying to make bad copies a relic of the past, and they may have the people to do it.

Lastly, I will say that a Tesla is a different thing. You don't hop straight from a Subaru to a Tesla and everything is the same. They are wildly different experiences, especially because so many of the controls are on a screen, and you can now control stuff that isn't found on the Subaru. So if you like familiarity, a Tesla may not be right for you. You may want to wait until other manufacturers catch up with more traditional incarnations of electric vehicles, with lots of buttons, knobs and dials.

 

[GoVols!]

I would invite you to spend some time watching EV myth busting videos on YouTube. Realize that Tesla has annoyed a LOT of vested interests, and they've been spreading a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about this technology. Oil companies, legacy auto companies, auto dealerships and even traditional media are all upset at Tesla because the company bypasses all of them. That takes money out of their pockets and they are not happy about that. That misinformation has become entrenched in the public consciousness; it's everywhere.

You mentioned reliability, which is ironic given that EVs are insanely reliable by nature. The drive train is electric motors and solid state electronics - very reliable technologies. The vehicles require almost no maintenance. They go through tires about 20% faster than an ICEV, and that's about it.

Also, I don't see any viable comparison between an iPhone and a BEV. An iPhone is designed to wear out in a couple years while a BEV is designed to wear out in 10-15. The Tesla battery warranty covers 8 years (or 150,000 miles), so you can be sure they'll last much longer (on average). The difference is the size of the battery pack and the fact that the Tesla battery has an entire electronics system devoted to keeping it as healthy as possible. Note that they're saying that the battery will deliver a certain amount of power after 8 years, not that it'll still work after 8. It'll probably work after 50, but no longer be able to store usable amounts of energy.

I wouldn't fret too much about the problems that you see described in the forums here. Unless you see an article in the press about wheels falling off the car, it's just a one-off problem. Every product has bad copies, and Teslas are no different. That said, I have a feeling that Tesla is trying to make bad copies a relic of the past, and they may have the people to do it.

Lastly, I will say that a Tesla is a different thing. You don't hop straight from a Subaru to a Tesla and everything is the same. They are wildly different experiences, especially because so many of the controls are on a screen, and you can now control stuff that isn't found on the Subaru. So if you like familiarity, a Tesla may not be right for you. You may want to wait until other manufacturers catch up with more traditional incarnations of electric vehicles, with lots of buttons, knobs and dials.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I actually like the simplicity of the Tesla compared to other Evs. It’s very new to me and a bit refreshing and fun. I am absolutely looking forward to my test drive next week. I already had the Tesla wall connector installed, mobile connector on hand and the 3d floor mats sitting in the garage.

 

[SO16]

People trust their preferred media sources, while you and your silly claims of "proof" can be safely ignored.

For me, the amazing bit about the Tesla story is that the company would have failed long ago if their vehicles weren't the phenomenal things that they are. It is only their tremendous capabilities that caused so many people to be so vocal about them, countering the media with simple word of mouth. If the cars had been only modestly better than a gas car, or if social media didn't exist to serve as a bullhorn for word of mouth, the traditional media push would have succeeded. I guess that underscores how out of touch all the entrenched vested interests are. They were blindsided. Probably still are.

I had an older gentleman approach me about my Tesla. His immediate concern was what happened when the 12V battery died. They die on gas cars, so it was logical to want to know what happens with an electric car. I pointed out that the 12V is a lithium battery fed by the car's main battery, so it's not going to die, but had to concede that if the battery dies, you can't get into a locked Tesla (you can get out, of course). I'm a little surprised that the media hasn't added that to their litany of facts about electric cars.

After googling a bit, I found that the car will notify you through the app if your 12V is starting to fail. It's not as ironclad and familiar a solution as having a physical key, but I wish I had been able to let that gentleman know.

That was just a "two-fer" (two for the price of one).

I had my 12v start to fail on my 2017 MS after about a year and a half. But it has been fine since. The original was not a lithium ion and I don’t think the new one on my car is either. But it’s been good for 4.5 years so far. And it gave me a warning before it failed. I waited about two weeks before getting it fixed and mobile service fixed it. Piece of cake.

I believe the newer cars use lithium ion for the 12v now.

 

[SO16]

Let them bask in their ignorance.

Every time I drive by a gas station without stopping I still smile a little.

Yes, Tesla isn’t perfect but overall I’m pleased with mine and wouldn’t consider going back to an ICE car ever.

I do believe EVs are a stopgap until something better (like hydrogen fuel cells) is made viable. I seriously considered a Mirai but the dealbreakers for me were (1) infrastructure - it doesn’t exist outside of southern CA - what if I want to drive outside this region? (2) regulations - many places still prohibit compressed H2 tanks on bridges and in tunnels. Again, very limiting and more constraints I’d rather not have to deal with in case I ever move or want to take a trip - never mind the new fuel tanks developed by Toyota are darn nearly indestructible, (3) Cost - even more than Tesla, with less performance.

I think their time will come but it isn’t now. The time for EVs is now and they’re only going to get better (aside from getting rid of the ultrasonic sensors… sorry, had to).

The M3 does everything I need it to very well. I’m not disappointed in the purchase and intend to keep it for a long time.

Fool cells are not the answer for average cars. EVs are just fine. Especially when we can fill up at home. Continuous improvements in range and charging speed are happening.