AP/FSD related crashes

[stopcrazypp]

That is nearly certainly true that FSD Beta (Autosteer on City Streets component) was not active. Should not be possible here.

But the Autosteer/NOA portion of the FSD package may have been. (For a certain purchase time window automatic lane change was not available without purchasing FSD.)

I can see for end users the terminology could be confusing.

Could be a terminology confusion by driver, but the author of the article assumes FSD meant FSD Beta, which he pointed out Elon announced the general release of. That's why I said to ignore the title (and by extension the other embellishments of the author) as there are not enough facts yet to establish if FSD or even AP was active. Only was interested in posting the video footage so people can see what happened.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So I am not surprised if drivers blame FSD or AP even if they were not on.

there are not enough facts yet to establish if FSD or even AP was active

Sure, but my point was it is hard to imagine that this was anything other than an AP/FSD crash - even though AP/FSD may not have been active in the seconds leading up to the collision.

It’s just hard to explain otherwise. Certainly driver could fall asleep in the middle of signaling or something, or have a medical event. But does not appear to be that likely here.

In the end, driver error (mode confusion and/or over-reliance on automation), likely with AP/FSD/TACC involvement prior to the event.

 

[DanCar]

Sure, but my point was it is hard to imagine that this was anything other than an AP/FSD crash - ...

Agree 100%. Hard to imagine how ap/FSD was not involved.

Exclusive: Surveillance Footage of Tesla Crash on SF’s Bay Bridge Hours After Elon Musk Announces "Self-Driving" Feature

Elon Musk has said Tesla’s problematic autopilot features are “really the difference between Tesla being worth a lot of money or worth basically zero.”

theintercept.com

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sure, but my point was it is hard to imagine that this was anything other than an AP/FSD crash - even though AP/FSD may not have been active in the seconds leading up to the collision.

It’s just hard to explain otherwise. Certainly driver could fall asleep in the middle of signaling or something, or have a medical event. But does not appear to be that likely here.

In the end, driver error (mode confusion and/or over-reliance on automation), likely with AP/FSD/TACC involvement prior to the event.

If NHTSA and/or NTSB does not push for an investigation, I'm guessing we might not find out. It doesn't seem like police are pushing it further (it's driver's fault regardless of AP/FSD was active, looked like an attentive driver could have easily accelerated to override even if car braked).

 

[kabin]

I would think this case would be solved by now. Assuming it was FSDb, it looks like path was slow to function as usual, missed the 15mph left exit, and fumbled its way after that with a lane change and brake.

Gawd only knows why the Tesla driver wasn't controlling his vehicle.

Elon is normally pretty good about letting the world know when FSD or AP are disabled in Tesla crashes.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Elon is normally pretty good about letting the world know when FSD or AP are disabled in Tesla crashes.

This one doesn’t count as a crash, anyway. Doesn’t qualify or meet the criteria (even if you allow FSD engaged 15 seconds prior or whatever).

Just incredibly safe vehicles.

I'm guessing we might not find out.

No, probably not. Just have to go with the most likely explanation. As you say the driver is at fault anyway. Insurance will work out the rest amongst themselves.

Not Good for Tesla

https://apple.news/AhCYlWEe1R8WyHH7pyQBTMw

teslamotorsclub.com

This was a good hypothesis for one failure mode.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I would think this case would be solved by now. Assuming it was FSDb, it looks like path was slow to function as usual, missed the 15mph left exit, and fumbled its way after that with a lane change and brake.

Gawd only knows why the Tesla driver wasn't controlling his vehicle.

Elon is normally pretty good about letting the world know when FSD or AP are disabled in Tesla crashes.

Not really, even ignoring the fact that Elon is quite distracted now on Twitter, Elon have only commented when Tesla crashes were fatal. He doesn't comment on other more minor cases (at least not from my search). In this case there were no serious injuries, and initial local coverage didn't even mention the vehicle type, much less any FSD/AP involvement.
7-car accident backs up Bay Bridge on Thanksgiving; 2 of 16 involved taken to hospital

There was a lot more coverage of the cliff incident recently.

 

[parrainx]

I take that tunnel home 5 days a week. AP never has issues there.

I don’t have FSD, but isn’t this the thing the car would do if the request to touch the wheel and alerts are ignored. It’ll slow down on the shoulder? Bad timing as there are no shoulders on the bridge?

Driver at fault in any regard. I don’t see any other reason for car or driver to do what happened there.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I take that tunnel home 5 days a week. AP never has issues there.

I don’t have FSD, but isn’t this the thing the car would do if the request to touch the wheel and alerts are ignored. It’ll slow down on the shoulder? Bad timing as there are no shoulders on the bridge?

Driver at fault in any regard. I don’t see any other reason for car or driver to do what happened there.

No, AP never attempts to change lanes in that situation, it just comes to a stop in your given lane:
"If you don't resume manual steering, Autosteer sounds a continuous chime, turns on the warning flashers, and slows the vehicle to a complete stop."
Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

 

[parrainx]

No, AP never attempts to change lanes in that situation, it just comes to a stop in your given lane:
"If you don't resume manual steering, Autosteer sounds a continuous chime, turns on the warning flashers, and slows the vehicle to a complete stop."
Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

What about the case if you’re on FSDbeta? Would it try to get off the road?

 

[kabin]

Not really, even ignoring the fact that Elon is quite distracted now on Twitter, Elon have only commented when Tesla crashes were fatal. He doesn't comment on other more minor cases (at least not from my search). In this case there were no serious injuries, and initial local coverage didn't even mention the vehicle type, much less any FSD/AP involvement.
7-car accident backs up Bay Bridge on Thanksgiving; 2 of 16 involved taken to hospital

There was a lot more coverage of the cliff incident recently.

I gotta say the image of that crash was pretty lasting and although it didn't kill anyone 8 or more families were adversely impacted - physically and financially.

Unfortunately with the expanded roll-out and the current FSDb state of affairs there might be plenty of opportunity to further analyze Elon's responses. In other words we shouldn't be surprised if there is a marked increase in stories like this.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I gotta say the image of that crash was pretty lasting and although it didn't kill anyone 8 or more families were adversely impacted - physically and financially.

Unfortunately with the expanded roll-out and the current FSDb state of affairs there might be plenty of opportunity to further analyze Elon's responses. In other words we shouldn't be surprised if there is a marked increase in stories like this.

Maybe this will change in the future, I'm just pointing out however in the past it's simply not true that Tesla (in this case Elon, given the USA no longer has a PR department) quickly comments on whether AP/FSD was on in relatively minor cases like this one. The media usually gets crickets when they ask Tesla for comment.

And while the initial trigger was the Tesla, the cars in the back largely crashed because they were going too fast, without sufficient following distance (for example, I remember reading the account that one of the cars claimed they stopped in time, but car behind plowed into them, but video shows otherwise). As you pointed out yourself in the other thread, the Tesla didn't appear to be going very fast before it applied the brakes.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

According to article, government says FSD was enabled in Bay Bridge crash.

Government investigation finds Tesla FSD was indeed engaged during the Bay Bridge pileup

The US Department of Transportation has released the NHTSA agency's special crash investigation findings of the Model S-caused pileup in San Francisco on Thanksgiving Day. The accident in the Bay Bridge tunnel has occurred with Tesla's Full Self-Driving Beta mode active indeed, just as the...

www.notebookcheck.net

If this is literally true, rather than just in the last few moments prior to the crash, just pretty remarkable.

Trust the system!

 

[DanCar]

If this is literally true, rather than just in the last few moments prior to the crash, just pretty remarkable.

Trust the system!

Sorry for posting an unreliable source.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Sorry for posting an unreliable source.

Not commenting on the source.

Just stating that it is true that FSD was engaged at the time of the accident, even if it was not literally engaged at the time of the accident. And that ambiguity can also be reported - and tough to understand the details without more detail.

Either way it seems it was engaged at the time of the accident, even if it wasn’t (literally). Which is not too surprising to those following.

Soon we’ll find out whether it was engaged at the time of collision, hopefully. Not that it really matters, given that it was engaged around the time. The rest is details which will determine what happened.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Sorry for posting an unreliable source.

I hate when the media doesn't post the primary source (the actual NHTSA report). This is just talking about the NHTSA general report others found which includes any accidents where an assistive tech was active within 30 seconds of the crash.

The other points were embellishments by the author (another thing I hate about third party articles). The report does not say FSD Beta was active (it could have been AP or NOA and it still would have been in the report) nor does it even say FSD/AP was active when the lane change was made.

From the CNN article it linked:
"The Tesla Model S that braked sharply and triggered an eight-car crash in San Francisco in November had the automaker’s controversial driver-assist software engaged within 30 seconds of the crash, according to data the federal government released Tuesday."

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/17/business/tesla-8-car-crash-autopilot/index.html

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This just talking about the NHTSA general report others found which includes any accidents where an assistive tech was active within 30 seconds of the crash.

Exactly. That was the point I was making above.

It's a distinction of little consequence of course. The main thing is the confirmation that driver assistance was involved (which is not shocking at all given what happened!).

Questions remain about whether it was disengaged, how, etc. Seems most likely to be mode confusion but we'll see.

If I were an investigator I would want to know whether Joe Mode was on (if a disengagement occurred). Very hazardous!

 

[DanCar]

Tesla driver killed after plowing into firetruck on freeway

Fire officials in Northern California say a Tesla driver was killed and a passenger was critically injured when the car plowed into a firetruck that was parked on a freeway.

apnews.com

Tesla driver killed after plowing into firetruck on freeway

Fire officials in Northern California say a Tesla driver was killed and a passenger was critically injured when the car plowed into a firetruck that was parked on a freeway

abcnews.go.com

The fatal accident occurred around 4 a.m.
At least 14 Teslas have crashed into emergency vehicles while using the system (AP).

1 Dead After Tesla Slams Into Fire Truck on I-680 in Walnut Creek

One person was killed after a Tesla crashed into a fire truck that was responding to an earlier accident on Interstate 680 in the East Bay early Saturday morning, officials said.

www.nbcbayarea.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1626997159257145345

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Tesla driver killed after plowing into firetruck on freeway

Fire officials in Northern California say a Tesla driver was killed and a passenger was critically injured when the car plowed into a firetruck that was parked on a freeway.

apnews.com

Tesla driver killed after plowing into firetruck on freeway

Fire officials in Northern California say a Tesla driver was killed and a passenger was critically injured when the car plowed into a firetruck that was parked on a freeway

abcnews.go.com

The fatal accident occurred around 4 a.m.
At least 14 Teslas have crashed into emergency vehicles while using the system (AP).

1 Dead After Tesla Slams Into Fire Truck on I-680 in Walnut Creek

One person was killed after a Tesla crashed into a fire truck that was responding to an earlier accident on Interstate 680 in the East Bay early Saturday morning, officials said.

www.nbcbayarea.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1626997159257145345

We’ll just have to hope v11 fixes all of this. It is pretty disgraceful to be running into stopped vehicles at this point in time.

I paid no attention to the exact model year of the vehicle in question to determine the hardware involved.

 

[Mullermn]

Whoever is sat in the driver seat of a car that ploughs in to a stationary, brightly coloured vehicle the size of a fire appliance covered in flashing lights should have their license taken away.