AP1 vs. AP2

[voltaren]

I don't care if he's late, I understand that. But I shouldn't be forced to pay for it.

I also don't know why I was forced to buy a Tesla! I was also forced to buy the ultra white seats! The injustice!

I was forced by my wife; what's your excuse?

 

[Electroman]

I don't care if he's late, I understand that. But I shouldn't be forced to pay for it.

This, I agree !

 

[oktane]

I also don't know why I was forced to buy a Tesla! I was also forced to buy the ultra white seats! The injustice!

I was forced by my wife; what's your excuse?

My excuse is Tesla scammed me into believe AP2 was a working feature and not a pipe dream. Now that they have taken my money but have not delivered anything of value to me, and refuse to refund me, they are effectively stealing from me. That's the real injustice here.

 

[Electroman]

Scam, stealing, injustice..

Can you please throw in a few more like: ponzi scheme, cheat, ..

 

[voltaren]

I also don't know why I was forced to buy a Tesla! I was also forced to buy the ultra white seats! The injustice!

My excuse is Tesla scammed me into believe AP2 was a working feature and not a pipe dream. Now that they have taken my money but have not delivered anything of value to me, and refuse to refund me, they are effectively stealing from me. That's the real injustice here.

That's a little dramatic. Nobody forced you to do anything. I have AP2 and fully realized there would be software validation time because Tesla put it that caveat in the design studio. The only scamming seems to have been within your mind.

 

[croman]

Tesla pretty much misled everyone who bought before December 2016 about the safety features (someone has posted the wording but it was definite on the safety features). EAP and FSD had various limiting language, for EAP it said regulatory approval and that it would begin to be rolled out via software updates in December 2016 but none of the safety features had that language.

So I don't think its overly dramatic to say Tesla lied to all buyers about the safety features that would be present on HW2 vehicles. AEB and these features have a real $ value and I likely would've waited or bought AP1 at a significant discount had I known Tesla wouldn't have AEB ready for 6 months! In fact, all the sales people and my DS, in writing, said, it would have the safety features and AP1 parity by end of the year (when I got my car). I ordered in late October/confirmed early November.

 

[SlyWombat]

Tesla pretty much misled everyone who bought before December 2016 about the safety features (someone has posted the wording but it was definite on the safety features). EAP and FSD had various limiting language, for EAP it said regulatory approval and that it would begin to be rolled out via software updates in December 2016 but none of the safety features had that language.

So I don't think its overly dramatic to say Tesla lied to all buyers about the safety features that would be present on HW2 vehicles. AEB and these features have a real $ value and I likely would've waited or bought AP1 at a significant discount had I known Tesla wouldn't have AEB ready for 6 months! In fact, all the sales people and my DS, in writing, said, it would have the safety features and AP1 parity by end of the year (when I got my car). I ordered in late October/confirmed early November.

I also ordered in November, but my sales people did not make the claim that it would be ready end of year, they gave the well.... it might be. Software development is not always predictable and delivery of hardware was what they promised, that I would have the HW2, but software would evolve (and as a previous Tesla owner I already realized this).

 

[bmah]

Tesla pretty much misled everyone who bought before December 2016 about the safety features (someone has posted the wording but it was definite on the safety features). EAP and FSD had various limiting language, for EAP it said regulatory approval and that it would begin to be rolled out via software updates in December 2016 but none of the safety features had that language.

So I don't think its overly dramatic to say Tesla lied to all buyers about the safety features that would be present on HW2 vehicles. AEB and these features have a real $ value and I likely would've waited or bought AP1 at a significant discount had I known Tesla wouldn't have AEB ready for 6 months! In fact, all the sales people and my DS, in writing, said, it would have the safety features and AP1 parity by end of the year (when I got my car). I ordered in late October/confirmed early November.

The words "misled" and "lie" almost always imply the intent to deceive, as opposed to just being wrong. I've seen people (not necessarily you) toss around those words pretty freely, seemingly without being clear on that distinction.

I've been in tech for awhile, and partly because of that I'm a big proponent of "Never ascribe to maliciousness what can be adequately explained by incompetence."

Bruce.

 

[voltaren]

So I don't think its overly dramatic to say Tesla lied to all buyers about the safety features that would be present on HW2 vehicles.

Spilt milk; the features are now present. Yet oktane is still complaining that he/she was wronged and AP2 provides nothing of value.

I agree with your sentiment but I think using the word "lied" is dramatic. Overly ambitious or exaggerated, yes.

 

[oktane]

I have AP2 and fully realized there would be software validation time because Tesla put it that caveat in the design studio. The only scamming seems to have been within your mind.

Good for you? I guess you are used to people lying to you or just accept that as OK. I do not and I didn't order over the internet but in person. No one told me studying the fine print on the "design studio" was a requirement for buying the car.

And no, "enhanced" AP2 was supposed to COMPLETE validation December 2016. No one told me all 10 years of Mobileye's work would be tossed out the window and "enhanced" autopilot was actually beta-autopilot. No one told me that my car with AP2 would drive substantially WORSE than AP1 technology released several years prior, which was enabled in the car I test drove prior to purchase.

It's absolutely a LIE when Tesla knew internally that the Mobileye partnership had ended around June 2016 when they sold me a car October 2016, and still had not figured out AP2. That is not an unfortunate coincidence.

 

[voltaren]

Good for you? I guess you are used to people lying to you or just accept that as OK. I do not and I didn't order over the internet but in person. No one told me studying the fine print on the "design studio" was a requirement for buying the car.

And no, "enhanced" AP2 was supposed to COMPLETE validation December 2016. No one told me all 10 years of Mobileye's work would be tossed out the window and "enhanced" autopilot was actually beta-autopilot. No one told me that my car with AP2 would drive substantially WORSE than AP1 technology released several years prior, which was enabled in the car I test drove prior to purchase.

It's absolutely a LIE when Tesla knew internally that the Mobileye partnership had ended around June 2016 when they sold me a car October 2016, and still had not figured out AP2. That is not an unfortunate coincidence.

 

[tennisman]

I currently have a car with AP2, but had a service loaner that had AP1. I noticed that in autopilot mode, the car with AP1 not only had the images of the cars in front but also the images of cars in adjacent lanes. My AP2 car only sees the cars in my lanes. Is this what other drivers are seeing in their AP2 cars also?

 

[u00mem9]

Those still defending Musk's actions last September when AP2 is still half-baked 7 MONTHS LATER are capable of impressive self-delusion.

 

[Sawyer8888]

I currently have a car with AP2, but had a service loaner that had AP1. I noticed that in autopilot mode, the car with AP1 not only had the images of the cars in front but also the images of cars in adjacent lanes. My AP2 car only sees the cars in my lanes. Is this what other drivers are seeing in their AP2 cars also?

For the most part, yes. Cars usually only appear in the lane you're traveling, although they do show up in adjacent lanes from time to time. Both the lane lines and the cars jump around periodically in the display as well.

AP2 would be better labeled as AP0.5. It's disappointing after experiencing AP1, but I put my big boy pants on everyday, suck up my tears and wait somewhat impatiently until the next major update. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but I can certainly understand the griping from others on this thread. They're not wrong.

There are a lot of smart people up at Tesla. Creative writing is a skill which has worked quite well for Tesla's marketing of their not-so-enhanced AP. It has fooled many and for others, it has provided reasons as to why those false claims are justified/acceptable.

Consumer Reports Yanks Tesla Model S Top Rating - ExtremeTech

"Consumer Reports is also unhappy with how some automakers market autonomous-driving features, making the features (in CR’s opinion) appear to be more autonomous than they really are. CR does not, for instance, like Tesla calling Autopilot “Autopilot” because some owners with more money than brains might take the term literally."​

 

[t8ness]

And your hatred for Tesla has clouded yours. You state opinion as if it were fact. Fortunately, many people who frequent this forum are quite knowledgeable about Tesla and can separate the two. However, some people come to this message board seeking honest, unbiased opinions. Unfortunately, it would seem that they cannot get that from you. You clearly have an agenda that prevents you from providing unbiased information and opinions. Perhaps you feel that the more people that are angry with Tesla, the more successful a class action law suit would be. Or perhaps the more the stock price would be affected. Personally, I don't care about the class action suit or any lawsuit for that matter and I don't care about the stock price. I don't own any. Wish I did, but alas I don't. Certainly not going to buy any at this price, but that is a topic for another thread. And I don't want my money back from Tesla. Quite honestly, I love the car. Greatest car I have ever owned. It has faults and yes I can talk about them rationally, if asked.

The OP had an honest and valid question about AP1 and AP2 and the differences between the 2. Your post(s) did not provide any useful information to answer to that question. Rather you attacked the post of someone who tried to do so without any specific information that added to the question/thread. You did exactly what you accused the responder of doing.

There are some excellent reviews of AP1 and AP2 on this message board that provide honest opinions and comments on where the system works and where it fails. Calling the system a "sham" or "pre-alpha" or a "fraud" adds nothing to the thread and does not answer the original question. And quite frankly, in its current iteration is simply not true.

If you truly dislike the car as much as it would appear that you do and believe that GM will surpass Tesla in 2017, sell your car and pre-order a GM vehicle with super cruise. Life is too short to waste time. If there is a better product out there, buy it. You may very well be correct. Of course, it also might just be your hatred for Tesla that is clouding your judgement.

My experience differs greatly from yours. I find AP2 to work extremely well on highways. I also find TACC to work very well. They are exactly what I paid for. AP2 on local roads is clearly a work in progress and weeks if not a couple months behind AP1, at least in my opinion.

In response to the OP, AP2 appears to have far superior hardware to AP1 and will presumably far surpass AP1 as far as function and features. However, since the system started from scratch it had quite a bit of ground to make up to catch a very good AP1 system. In my opinion, AP2 is currently getting close to AP1 at highway speeds and with TACC, but AP1 is still better. In my, opinion, the new hardware and features will surpass AP1 in the next couple of months. But that is admittedly speculative on my part. On local roads, AP1 is still far superior to AP2 and it will likely take a couple months just for AP2 to approach AP1 on local roads. I rarely use AP2 on local roads for a variety of reasons.

Because of the progress shown on AP2 to date and particularly with the latest update, I would suggest purchasing an AP2 equipped car at this point if one is able. But that is my opinion and does not make it so.

Drive safe. Be civil.

Well said

 

[t8ness]

I've been looking at used vs new, and the deciding factor for me, especially since the Model S 75 price has been lowered is the full capability of the AP2. It seems way more promising, and since I don't yet own a tesla my opinion is solely based on the information that's currently available....

 

[mdevp]

Have you started the lawsuit yet? My original bag of popcorn is really stale and I now have to make another one. I'm thinking about suing you....

 

[Robwoodruff]

The newest update, 17.17.4 fixes the "cruise not available" bug, and brings AP2 about 90% toward AP1 driving. There is no longer a 35 mph speed limit restriction on local roads, auto headlights now work, 90 mph speed limit on highways, automatic emergency breaking is now active. It still doesn't see cars in the lanes to the side and the self driving is not quite as smooth yet, but it gets better with each update.

 

[oktane]

The newest update, 17.17.4 fixes the "cruise not available" bug, and brings AP2 about 90% toward AP1 driving. There is no longer a 35 mph speed limit restriction on local roads, auto headlights now work, 90 mph speed limit on highways, automatic emergency breaking is now active. It still doesn't see cars in the lanes to the side and the self driving is not quite as smooth yet, but it gets better with each update.

Except drive quality is still lacking compared to AP1. Still drives sloppily.

 

[boonedocks]

Except drive quality is still lacking compared to AP1. Still drives sloppily.

Agreed, AP2 still has quite a way to go to be in usability parity with AP1 Feel like my AP1 car did on its mid to late updates before it was pretty well baked. Hopefully we will resume the 2-4 week AP2 updates to quickly remedy it.