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AP2 - Definitely heading in the right direction...

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by Driver Dave, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    Seriously, @Driver Dave, thanks for sharing your expertise. We've got 8,000+ miles using AP2 so don't feel obligated to provide condescending suggestions on how we should be driving the car. Beta means developers are still working through problems. That's what we were asked about, and that's what we were documenting. We're obviously taking over in the situations that were described. Otherwise, the car would be in the junk yard at this juncture. :eek:
     
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  2. Electroman

    Electroman Well-Known Member

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    condescending suggestions come from you condescending observations that AP is trying to kill you.

    You could make that same observation even for a regular non-AP car that if you don't pay attention, during highway merges, lane changes, how much to press the accelerator and how much to turn the wheels during a curve - it will kill you.
     
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  3. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    I guess we both agree that AP2 is no worse than a non-AP vehicle with a driver who is not paying attention. Seriously?
     
  4. dhanson865

    dhanson865 Active Member

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    We have no proof he was watching it, there were quotes saying it was playing but he could have just been listening to it.

    The only person at the scene who specifically mentioned that he was watching it was the truck driver who didn't see it in action, just said that after the death occurred and had reason to cover his own rear.

    If he heard it after the accident that doesn't mean it was playing during the accident. The actual accident or the crash into the telephone pole could have provided the force to start the player if it was paused. All it takes is one key press and the key doesn't have to be pressed by a human, any random object pushing against it is fine.

    Occams Razor says he was likely playing it at the time of the accident but even then that doesn't mean he was watching it, he could have been using it as a glorified audio book and be listening to it.

    So we have possibilities of

    1. impact cause player to start
    2. player was playing but driver wasn't watching / only listening
    3. player was playing and driver was watching

    You can say which is most likely but you can't say for certain because no eye witness mentioned seeing his face or head and the direction facing at or immediately before the impact.

    Fatal autopilot crash, NHTSA investigating...
     
  5. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    AP2 on a well lit and lined highway, drives much better than I could. Dead center for many many many miles. I feel better when I turn it on on long drives.
     
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  6. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

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    This is exactly the issue. Some people just won't get it.

    They can't or won't see technology as tools to use. They are types that use tabs in Word instead of styles to make indented paragraphs. They never set the time on their VCR and it was always flashing.

    They should probably not get any driver assistance until level 5 autonomy. They can't be counted on to discern the limits of the tools of <level 5 driver assistance and anticipate how it will work.
     
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  7. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    I do agree in that I've found driving with any sort of AP as "a thing". Almost should be taught. It is not just a hand over, it is an active thing you are doing. It is not driving, it is something like it. The closest thing I've come to describe it is, you are Sulu from star trek manning the helm. Maybe not manually steering, but giving the orders and watching what happens.

    Someday, we'll all be kirk sitting back and just saying "go there" But for now we are Sulu, actively manning the helm.
     
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  8. ICUDoc

    ICUDoc Member

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    I had never before considered the limitations of AP2 in the hands of a someone who "didn't get it". I guess I am a nerdy early-adopter type, and for me AP2 is great (AP1 still a little in front, at this stage!). But you last two posters are right- some people will abuse it and possibly cause trouble.
    .... natural selection WILL winnow them out, of course.....
     
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  9. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

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    You mean the FSD that they posted videos of on October 20th, 2016, 232 days ago, as a way to market just how far along their FSD development was? What you mean is that FSD hasn't been *released* yet, not that it hasn't been developed. But that FSD video is surely part of the confusion a Tesla buyer would have. They put out demo videos of the cars driving with zero interaction, yet the software they release requires constant interaction just to not hit a curb in many cases. It's fair that people would be confused by just how often AP2 screws up in simple situations even if they knew FSD wasn't here yet. My AP2 car will happily accelerate itself and rear end another car if it moves halfway over into the other lane and then stops.

    Funny. I literally design autopilots for a living and the mantra here is "never disconnect unless the pilot requests it." Many airplanes require the autopilot on in turbulence by design as a pilot isn't as good as the autopilot.

    The autopilots I work on also have terrain databases and won't fly you into the ground or a mountain.

    Don't take a 30 year old autopilot as a comparison to the cutting edge "Self driving" cars. Modern autopilots, even in small airplanes that cost about the same as a Tesla, can do a lot and hardly require any pilot interaction once properly configured.
     
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  10. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

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    Thanks for the enlightenment on autopilot technology. Funny that the more some other folks tout their brilliance, the more adamant they become in their ignorance.
     
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  11. Lloyd

    Lloyd Well-Known Member

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  12. essmd

    essmd Phantom X

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    Well I am prepared to get downvoted for this post, but I have a completely different perspective given 4 days of AP2 ownership... and I am typically a Tesla Fan Boy with a few exceptions.

    Perhaps I may be one of the few MX owners that spent the last 8 months using, trusting and loving AP1, activating it almost everywhere possible for the usual reasons, as well uncommon ones, as on lined residential 30 MPH roads to avoid going too fast, who then replaced it 4 days ago with a new AP2, 17.17.17.

    What a step backwards after the 55 miles of "camera calibration" after taking delivery.

    It not just the center display AP images being jittery like the street lines are having seizures, or the icon representing the cars ahead like a dancing rabbit, sometimes twins, on/off/on and all over the place, but what happened to the vehicles in adjacent lanes??? Did they add side blinders to the radar?

    On the exact same roads I traveled for almost a year, now this previously valued high-tech feature is causing deceleration for no explainable reason, even once giving me a red flashing warning and brakes activated as I approached a crest of the road.

    I have had to overtake AP over 3 times as much on my everyday roads than I ever had to with AP1, and the "fails" are not consistent or explainable, like AP1 usually was.

    I must appear to be a drunk driver to the cars behind me on most, but especially divided 45 MPH and faster streets. And if an head-on car makes a left turn in front of me even 4 blocks away while I'm going 40MPH, I slow down to 20MPH until that car is well off the road, it's like my old granny is driving.

    And I have not read more than 10% of the speed limit signs, then after a block or tow the database speed limit populates, then disappears just before as I pass another one which does not get recognized.

    So I am not comparing AP2 to unrealistic expectations or dreams, but just to 8 months of AP1.

    How could it possibly be so difficult to get to AP1 parity after almost 9 months with a new vendor, better camera system, advanced ultrasonic sensors, and a faster CPU?

    Somebody remind me why Tesla changed vendors? Was it a cheaper contract, or are they supposed to take AP to the next level?

    Perhaps i have a "lemon" AP system, since I know few others have reported the lack of speed limit sign recognition since the last several updates.

    But I have to disagree wholeheartedly with the OP about comparing to AP1, and if this is a step in the right direction, I can't imagine how bad AP2 has been performing since the beginning of the year. No wonder the one referral I gave who took delivery in December isn't calling me to tell me how great his AP is like I bragged about mine.

    I used to preach that when I activated AP1, the vehicle was driven way more safely than when it was off, I honestly cannot say that now.

    Yes I am aware it is a work in progress, but at this rate, it will be years, possibly AP8, before EAP actually does what it is claimed to do, hopefully as smoothly as AP1 was.

    Also, I am so glad I did not pay for FSD, cause their ain't gonna be any refunds if the regulators never approve a Tesla to be Level 4 or 5 with this HW version.

    Sorry, just being honest.

    [ LevelsofDrivingAutomation.png
     
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  13. JonG

    JonG Banned

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    How long are we going to keep using the 'beta' excuse. Tesla have been putting AutoPilot in cars for nearly 2 years and 'beta' implies one day the software will come of age and it will do everything people hope in terms of being left to it (I'm referring to AP and EAP). That will never happen. These systems (AP, EAP) will always require driver vigilance in the same way if you turn cruise control on in an older car it works to a point but has limitations.

    AP, EAP and even Full self driving will all require a driver in the drivers seat and skneone ready to intervene and relatively short notice. Read the FSD description and it says it should work in nearly all circumstances and it also says only twice as safe as humans. That still leaves room for it not working and a lot of accidents happening when operational. I'd prefer to be awake and potentially avert an accident when these systems fail rather than stuff the car into a concrete barrier on the entry into road works and temporary lanes like we've seen happen.

    It's a classic case of expectations do not match reality.
     
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  14. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    There is no 'beta excuse', there is only 'beta misunderstanding'.
    The tool is what it is, not what somebody said or anybody wished, it is what it is.

    You learn what it can do, you learn what it cannot do, you learn what it will do.
    You then go and use it as you see fit.
     
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  15. JonG

    JonG Banned

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    Isn't that what I said?
     
  16. BestRadar

    BestRadar Member

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    I see you have a reservation on a Model 3, I hope people that defend the system would actually be users that are using the system... AP2 users would be preferred and not AP1 users who do not have the same user experience. My wife and kids wont even let me activate it when they are in the car because every time I activated it there always seemed to be a dangerous issue. I said it earlier if you are on a straight road and there are 2 freshly painted lines it will keep you in there but the system is marketed and sold as much much more. If a construction crew is on a road doing maintenance, if a line fades, You crest a hill, etc. It becomes dangerous. The system is not where it was promised to be and I think anyone using it would agree.
     
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  17. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    To me what was promised was an early first version of a simple self driving system (yes two years in its very early with something like this)

    I use it all the time.

    But...

    On winding roads with hills, no.

    On a road with very faded lines, nope.

    On a road with construction, no way.

    If you are finding yourself in dangerous situations you just aren't paying attention or are trying to use it on roads you shouldn't.

    Other than that, long trips, long highway, I can't think I'll ever go back to having to manually drive. It does way better than me.
     
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  18. BestRadar

    BestRadar Member

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    But that is the issue. The vehicle should not allow you to engage it if it cant safely be used. I find they are releasing stuff not ready just to try to catch up on deadlines that have long past. Just like Automatic Emergency Braking, They now checked the box... It has the feature and lets move on but its limited to 28mph, When your on the highway what good is it? Auto Pilot on local roads.. Check the Box but its dangerous as hell. If they think they are going to allow these functions with this capability on a mass produced vehicle like the Model 3 we will see a story of a new Tesla accident every night on the news.
     
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  19. Electroman

    Electroman Well-Known Member

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    No different from AP1. But AP1 is very popular.
     
  20. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    Exactly. All cars should never let you start them if you are a bad driver.

    Sorry, none of these features are "dangersous as hell" only bad drivers who don't pay attention are or refuse to learn how and when to use features in their car.

    It is like a guy using cruise control for the first time and crashing into the car in front of him and blaming "that darn cruise control they should have never released"
     
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