-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
controller
Model S 90D 2016 facelift AP1
AP fairytale meets reality. Here in Finland this thing is barely usable for good five months of the year. The reasons being:
1. radar blocked as discussed here,
2. dirt on cameras (salt mixed with bits of tarmac - 80% of cars use studded tires)
3. lane marking are not visible due to said dirt or snow
4. cameras are completely confused by reflections feom very wet roads and darkness for 19 hours a day
We should not forget unpaved roads, roads with no lane marking, small roads which are not cleaned in winter.
What works in California not necessarily works everywhere
1. radar blocked as discussed here,
2. dirt on cameras (salt mixed with bits of tarmac - 80% of cars use studded tires)
3. lane marking are not visible due to said dirt or snow
4. cameras are completely confused by reflections feom very wet roads and darkness for 19 hours a day
We should not forget unpaved roads, roads with no lane marking, small roads which are not cleaned in winter.
What works in California not necessarily works everywhere
This, I would say, is an inherent feature of the technology and is common to all cars I've driven. So, ultrasonics definitely need to be cleared of snow, though I would say this is more an issue after overnight parking than during driving (are the sensors usually heated or get hot?). I'll have to see how the Model X fares... my recollection of the Model S was that it wasn't different form other cars in its ultrasonics.
The AP2 radar, though, that seems a bit more fragile than usual in snow.
Much of that common wisdom is based on cruise controls on older cars, though, where there was a real problem I agree. It is just such ancient history in my view that I find it surprising that apparently this guidance still exists in some places as firm(ish) rule? Mind you, I am not saying this to disparage such guidance (driving cultures are different in different places, as are the guidance, laws etc., who is to say one way applies to all), I'm just reporting my personal experiences and circumstances. Also, I wouldn't use cruise control in circumstances where the conditions require variable speeds due to varying conditions of course.
The point I'm making here is, ESP (electronic stability program and its various other names) is super-human, it already is - has been for a couple of decades, but modern ones are especially clever and subtle. It is, by the way, mandatory in the EU too. There is no way for me to brake a singular wheel on the car, the car does not offer a user-interface for that, but even if it did I wouldn't be able to make the right choices. ESP on the other hand does it often before the driver even notices what happens.
The car won't start drifting because ESP stops that - and in my experience that immediately and very reliably disengages cruise control too. If this varies from car to car, I accept some car brands may be different, so experience and make your own choices of course, I am talking of cars that disengage cruise on ESP events. Then again, with ESP taking control, the cruise might not be that bad even if it kept going - ESP can cut engine power where necessary and brake any wheel it needs to, to keep you going where you are supposed to go.
Now, of course you can go too fast for the circumstances and fail. As said, common sense, properly selected speed and good winter tires are mandatory. Don't use a constant speed device if the circumstances require variable speeds.
Same applies to driving on Level 2 aids in general, in any weather. They can make mistakes and studies say you are often slower to react when relying on such aids. Yet rarely here would anyone suggest don't use Level 2 driver's aids, indeed many happily use a beta Autopilot. It is about common sense when to use it and a healthy balance.
I don't mind if others make other choices, but I don't personally agree it is irresponsible to use cruise in snowy conditions in general. Some snowy situations, with proper winter tires, are not that different from rain - and it was one of those circumstances that killed my radar last time. There was nothing about the conditions themselves that IMO would have warranted not using cruise control.
Last edited:
Thanks for chiming in @controller.
This point could explain differences in different markets. The content of the snow etc. (due to differences on road care methods, tire culture/legislation, weather patterns) could certainly vary from country to country and cause different reactions.
This is the same as AP and mapping - e.g. is California mapped better (and thus AP works better) than some other places. We're discussing with people driving in very different locales and the features of the car simply may match some locales better than others - and then we're arguing with each other whose experience is the right one, when perhaps everyone's is!
This point could explain differences in different markets. The content of the snow etc. (due to differences on road care methods, tire culture/legislation, weather patterns) could certainly vary from country to country and cause different reactions.
This is the same as AP and mapping - e.g. is California mapped better (and thus AP works better) than some other places. We're discussing with people driving in very different locales and the features of the car simply may match some locales better than others - and then we're arguing with each other whose experience is the right one, when perhaps everyone's is!
Last edited:
FWIW, the Bosch radars (pre AP2.5) have heated radomes. AP1 copes better because the unit is exposed, but the AP2 unit is not exposed or (IIRC) physically connected to the bumper. My guess would be that the lack of heating was done to prevent cosmetic defects (i.e. the heated section will age at a different rate to the non-heated section).
This will be a problem for all EVs. They don't have the benefit of an energy-wasting ICE keeping things toasty just behind the sensor.
This will be a problem for all EVs. They don't have the benefit of an energy-wasting ICE keeping things toasty just behind the sensor.
Good additional point.
Designing the radar to be visible or behind some suitably designed piece of plastic could be useful, in the future. That could be heated.
I've always found Audi's (A6/A8) way of creating faux foglights out of radars quite ingenious, though of course they do tend to look a bit too old-fashioned for Tesla.
Last edited:
Thinking of making a little video out of my snow failure clips.... what do you make of the error signal on the IC on my AP2 car? Would it be different than AP2.5?
Joe F
Disruption is hard.
Couldn't make out what the IC msg was from the video.
FWIW, it looks like the front radar error I got. Repeated attempts at enabling TACC/AP result in just the error popping up.
Mine was preceded by the red hands - the first time I've seen the red hands - because AP was enabled when the radar went blind.
It's hard because I don't want to make a video out of it because it doesn't have Autopilot in it... which i guess is the point? I don't anticipate it snowing anytime soon again in Austin so I can have it fail as I'm driving and forcing a disegagment as opposed to it just saying I can't disengage. What do you think it says on the IC?Couldn't make out what the IC msg was from the video.
I have video from 5 minutes later on the drive, but it's Lenny Kravitz rather than Oasis :-( Still maybe the IC can be seen better.
Joe F
Disruption is hard.
Didn't even notice AP wasn't engaged the first time.
I paused the playback, but just can't make it out. time to upgrade to 4K video!
I think it says, "Is that you, shrimp? That's not your music!"
Yet another example of lack of engineering and testing with poor design decisions at Tesla. Really, no one thought of testing AP2 in the snow before mass production?
No capacitive touch sensors on the door handles to save $30, so every time I walk by my car the doors unlock and the handles extend, even it's not my intention? I mean, this is high-school level electrical engineering.... Oh and no proximity antennas for the rear doors to save a few bucks so I have to walk to the front of the car to unlock?
This type of stuff makes me appreciate the thought that goes into a "real" car such as a Mercedes. Don't get me wrong, I love driving my Tesla but things like this drive me crazy.
#firstworldproblems
Joe F
Disruption is hard.
Looks as if my area won't have snow until Christmas, but it's going to be a mix of rain and snow with temps around 40F. I'll be out and about and will try to get some footage then.
Let me be a beacon of hope for a moment: Maybe they just haven't tested the latest software in snow. Whatever they did during the summer may be worse than before? They'll fix this in 3 months maybe, 6 months definitely, right?
But then it will stop working in summer weather. That's the Tesla update way.
But then it will stop working in summer weather. That's the Tesla update way.
Is it the difference between rime ice and clear ice?? We need some boots on this car. Just kidding.
Also, the lack of snow testing of AP2 gives the snow traction lawsuit referenced in a different thread more credibility.
This tunnel would have exposed this vulnerability for radar:
This tunnel would have exposed this vulnerability for radar:
OK guys, the fix is in - luckily it can be retrofitted:
Joe F
Disruption is hard.
Now that's funny! Although, you need to string the cord up over the mirror. Over here, OSHA would not allow that.
Similar threads
