AP2 - Snow radar failure

[Canuck]

IMO a good adaptive cruise with ESP absolutely is safe to use in snow, for the same reason AP2 is safe to use in general. - the driver remains in charge.

Here's where you're wrong. You are not in control when cruise is in control. Cruise will speed up when you need to drive into, and out of, a slide. You really need to lose control on snow or ice, to know why it's so important to know how to regain control, mostly by not fighting the slide instantly -- yet cruise does just that -- before you can react and "remain in charge". I've spun full circle -- had a vehicle slide right in front of me into the snow bank narrowly missing a head on collision -- had a vehicle pass me then slide into oncoming traffic -- in my Tahoe just last winter with no dashcam! -- it's in my Tesla -- I'll never forget my daughters "ahhhhhhhhh" as the driver passed us only to lose control on a slushy icy road then the resulting crash and I had to drive around the crash and flying debris. Fortunately, everyone was okay. I'm not saying anyone was using cruise -- no one was -- I'm talking about my experience with driving on ice and snow. I drive on a road that is a sheet of ice when it warms up in the day and freezes at night. I know exactly how to steer into slides, and make them part of the drive. You need to understand this to understand why cruise is so dangerous on icy roads.

This is my weekend drive to my cabin:

Highway Thru Hell

Sorry, but you'll never convince me cruise is "absolutely" safe to use in snow. I've driven too much in snow to know the opposite is true.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Canuck The same applies to anything AP2 does. If it makes a mistake, you may not have enough time to recover, if you are not vigilant or your response is not sufficient, or AP2 makes it harder for you to react correctly. Even in dry summer weather. That's the nature of any Level 2 driver's aid. On the other hand, they may help me avoid some other problems (e.g. that adaptive cruise can avoid some crashes).

The worst age-old problems with cruise controls have been remedied by electronic stability programs working together with the cruise control (e.g. slippage will disable cruise and ESP can handle many sudden movements). What remains is the question, whether or not overall cruise lessens your reaction time too much or results in wrong corrective maneuvers.

Sure, it can lessen the reaction time somewhat or start responding to a situation in the wrong manner, but then that is true in every instance of using driver's aids - just don't use AP2 if it isn't safe to do so. The limit isn't IMO a hard one, though, "snow: no". The limit is an overall assessment of what tools are right for the job at a particular time.

Snow is on the ground for many months of a year in many parts of the world. People driving in such snow will of course have tires suitable for the job. Telling them not to use cruise control or AP2 during that time would not IMO be a reasonable solution. That's why they are in ultimate control and that's why cars have electronic stability control - and that's why they should have suitable tires of course.

My point isn't necessarily that using cruise in winter is safer or as safe as not using cruise. Frankly, I am not convinced that using AP2 in dry summer weather is safer than not using it. Maybe it would be safest to not use AP2 ever. But in both cases IMO it is mostly that it is reasonable and reasonably safe to use them, as long as you remain vigilant and avoid the most extreme of conditions (and the radar keeps working of course).

Sorry, but you'll never convince me cruise is "absolutely" safe to use in snow. I've driven too much in snow to know the opposite is true.

Luckily I don't need to, all I need to do is disagree with you.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This is my weekend drive to my cabin:

Highway Thru Hell

By the way, there's snow and there's snow. I'm not talking about using cruise when wading knee-deep in it.

That's why I dislike blanket suggestions either way. Common sense is the rule...

This, I would definitely drive cruise in:

If only AP2 didn't disable due to radar being blocked by a slight frosting.

 

[Joe F]

• By the way, there's snow and there's snow. I'm not talking about using cruise when wading knee-deep in it.

That's why I dislike blanket suggestions either way. Common sense is the rule...

This, I would definitely drive cruise in:

If only AP2 didn't disable due to radar being blocked by a slight frosting.

I think we should all chip in a buy you a camera so you can take pictures of your own car to post here, assuming you even own a Tesla. Increasingly convinced you don’t.

• “Here’s a picture of a typical road I drive on.” That you found on the Internet.
• “Here’s a picture of someone’s else’s snow covered car.” Really?

• Here’s a ton of obfuscation while I backpedal from stating:

1. “I have never, ever heard of the suggestion not to use cruise control in winter time.”
2. “I don't recall any training or manuals prohibiting this.”

I truly hope you never hit black ice driving whatever you do drive with cruise enabled. Or slush and/or ice under what you believe to be just snow.

I’ll trust 50 years of driving experience over what you’ll blithely relegate to technology any day.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

assuming you even own a Tesla. Increasingly convinced you don’t.

I'm on my second Tesla, a fact.

• “Here’s a picture of a typical road I drive on.” That you found on the Internet.

Complete misrepresentation. I stated in the message it was a road akin to the ones I drive on and said it was an image from the internet. It was for illustrative purposes.

I believe it is very normal and polite online netiquette to allow people to share as much or as little of information as they choose. I have chosen to share some things and not others, I would hope others can respect that - as I do to others, respecting what they choose to share or not.

“Here’s a picture of someone’s else’s snow covered car.” Really?

Yes, @bjornb is a very famous Tesla poster whom I'm sure doesn't mind.

These photos are mine and from my car: Trying out wrong VIN Tesla mats and third-party Model S goodies on Model X

• Here’s a ton of obfuscation while I backpedal from stating:

1. “I have never, ever heard of the suggestion not to use cruise control in winter time.”
2. “I don't recall any training or manuals prohibiting this.”

These are true. I don't recall any such guidance. You guys have offered some from American perspective, but I don't recall any in my own experience.

I truly hope you never hit black ice driving whatever you do drive with cruise enabled. Or slush and/or ice under what you believe to be just snow.

That's why I remain vigilant and prefer cars with the latest technology, e.g. electronic stability programs, and I have good winter tires when driving in snow. I have driven adaptive cruise (with ESP) for 11 years in annual winter weather - a bit less in past few years as my daily driver was the pre-AP Model S, but still my secondary car had adaptive cruise all this time.

Look. I get what you and @Canuck are saying about the perils of winter driving. I really do, I've accelerated onto a motorway and watched the person in front of me accelerate too hard and spin a full 360 degrees in front of me. It was an older RWD, with no ESP judging by its age - a modern car probably would have not done that. But I still remember the face of the driver as she briefly pointed my way and spun to the snowy side (miraculously completely unhurt, car or driver). I've had my small mishaps too, though never on cruise.

But I think there is also a major cultural disconnect between us on different sides of the pond. I think some of this we should just leave at that and respect the difference. No? We probably have greatly different winter driving cultures too, explaining very different reactions. I genuinely don't share the anti-cruise sentiment - excuse the pun, it is completely foreign to me. Maybe this is down to very different public awareness campaigns or somesuch in different markets.

I'd be happy to leave it at just being different and having different backgrounds. No need to find right or wrong IMO.

 

[Canuck]

@Canuck The same applies to anything AP2 does. If it makes a mistake, you may not have enough time to recover, if you are not vigilant or your response is not sufficient, or AP2 makes it harder for you to react correctly.

You're failing to understand my point. That's not at all what I'm talking about. AP2 making it "harder for you to react correctly" is completely different than it acting against you even before you can react. It's easy to correct AP. We've all done it. Who has corrected a slide while on cruise? You? Obviously not or you would never equate it with correcting AP.

There is no "mistake" with cruise. Cruise does what it is suppose to do -- speed up when it needs to resume speed -- including when the tires are slipping on ice and you need to let go and steer into the slide -- rather than hit the brakes which is what it instinctively makes you do when you lose control, or turn it off. Those are seconds you don't have.

Snow is on the ground for many months of a year in many parts of the world. People driving in such snow will of course have tires suitable for the job. Telling them not to use cruise control or AP2 during that time would not IMO be a reasonable solution.

I don't know where you drive but we use plows, salt and gravel so it doesn't stay on the road for "many months". I find that a very odd statement, and I live in Canada, where we likely have a lot more snow than where you are. Do you consider this snow on the ground?

This is snow on the ground:

And our roads fluctuate between both of the above within a day. Snow doesn't stay on the road "many months" here like it does where you live (not that I believe it does) or we would never get anywhere.

*cruise should not be used in the conditions shown in both pics. There's still ice and slush in the first pic -- - but if our clear weather stays, it will be gone soon. Then it can be used, until another storm comes through.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

There is no "mistake" with cruise. Cruise does what it is suppose to do -- speed up when it needs to resume speed -- including when the tires are slipping on ice and you need to let go and steer into the slide -- rather than hit the brakes which is what it instinctively makes you do when you lose control, or turn it off.

But that's simply not true in a modern car. I concede it is true for vintage cars.

In a modern car what happens when you go into a slide against the direction of travel or face slippage is ESP braking a select wheel or wheels to correct you, causing cruise control to disengage and car starting to gently slow down while also staying in direction in most reasonable circumstances. Of course you can react wrong, and you can have the wrong speed for the situation and physics taking over, but that applies to any mode of drive.

As for snow staying for months, obviously that refers to the season. Not every road is salted, though, it may simply be plowed or sanded (which basically results in compacted snow as the road surface), but again that's no issue when driven at suitable speeds and on suitable tires - cruise or not.

I get the idea that you guys offer as the problem with cruise. I just don't see the modern relevance. That said, even I agree there are weathers when I would not use cruise, snow in general just not being the cut-off point.

The circumstances when my AP2 "slushed out" were not dangerous for cruise use at all IMO, the wheels were gripping firm and there was no ice (the weather wasn't exactly freezing), what there was was some wet snow flying around - frankly more cosmetic than anything.

 

[calisnow]

I think we should all chip in a buy you a camera so you can take pictures of your own car to post here, assuming you even own a Tesla. Increasingly convinced you don’t.

FWIW I have it from a trusted source with real contacts inside Tesla that AR does own a Model X and that Tesla knows who he is. If you have seen my posts at all you know I locked horns frequently with him but I will say I believe he owns a Tesla based on the credibility of my source.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you, @calisnow.

If @Joe F was not active in the Model X form on the waiting days, he may not recall, but I did have my Model X reservation number on the signature for many years. (Which I eventually swapped into an AP2 order, though.)

 

[Joe F]

FWIW I have it from a trusted source with real contacts inside Tesla that AR does own a Model X and that Tesla knows who he is. If you have seen my posts at all you know I locked horns frequently with him but I will say I believe he owns a Tesla based on the credibility of my source.

Thanks. Noted and appreciated. And yes, I know of the horn locking vividly.

 

[Joe F]

Thank you, @calisnow.

If @Joe F was not active in the Model X form on the waiting days, he may not recall, but I did have my Model X reservation number on the signature for many years. (Which I eventually swapped into an AP2 order, though.)

While I was not actively following the X forum, I draw my feelings about those who primarily take every opportunity possible to constantly drive home their own bias and agenda against a company like Tesla.

You're posts, to me, offer a veiled view as to your true intentions here. It would be helpful by all gathered here to actually post a simple picture of your vehicle and the lightly snow covered bumper that you say caused the radar to malfunction. Instead, you post a picture of someone else's Tesla. It's very odd. You claim privacy concerns for doing so. An isolated picture of you own problematic situation somehow being an invasion of your privacy is a red flag, one of a growing number of red flags. I doubt you're in the witness protection program...

We're all here sharing, trying to help others, yet your re-posting pictures of a a few cars that Tesla customers have posted to show their issue, is helping who exactly? It wears thin over time, and negates the positive content you do offer.

 

[boonedocks]

Tesla heating the front camera but not the radar basically disables the system making it unusable. This radar failure was roughly 5 min after leaving a parking garage. The still was later on in the day after some errands and things.

View attachment 265499

My wife was driving our MS100D home Friday when it started to snow. The roads were warm so no sticking or icing a tall but the snowflakes were huge. Not even as bad driving or visibility as a hard rain. AP2 would repeatedly scream with red hands "TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY" Wouldn't even operate as good as 1/4 of a human driver...(using the Elon scale)

 

[Padelford]

I believe it's to the right of the T and the garage door transmitter is on the left.

FWIW, the radar on a 2017 MX is on the passenger side of the center front fascia. You can pop off some panels inside the front of the frunk and check this.

RE a heater for the radar: a metal wire pattern on the inside of the front plastic fascia like that embedded in rear windows might work if the lines are > 1” apart (separation >> radar wavelength) and oriented in the same direction as the radar antenna polarization, assuming the radar isn’t circularly polarized. Otherwise, a heated air blower heating the inside fascia surface would be needed.

Older

 

[BigD0g]

So, just to add to the in-climate weather failure scenarios. I was driving home last night in perfect weather, however the roads were treated with icing resulting in some loss of contrast with lane lines, but still visible, well AP didn't like it at all and when going around a small curve that i've done a 100x before he swerved all the way into the left lane.

So, let's rule out radar and cameras for in climate weather. Appears it will only be sure perfect scenarios given the more I see. Perhaps lower CA only, LOL!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You're posts, to me, offer a veiled view as to your true intentions here.

What can I say, except that I have no veiled intents - I do have my quite open and public opinions, views, and yes I'm sure biases as well. And certainly I have my own style of expression that some find polarizing and I'm seeking - and hopefully growing in - in finding suitable balance on. I am a critical voice for sure, but I try to be a constructive one. And I try to make online friends, I think with some people we've "locked horns with", we're making some progress and I find that delightful. We can have disagreements and still enjoy each other's online company. I know I can improve in being that good friend and I try to.

It would be helpful by all gathered here to actually post a simple picture of your vehicle and the lightly snow covered bumper that you say caused the radar to malfunction. Instead, you post a picture of someone else's Tesla. It's very odd. You claim privacy concerns for doing so. An isolated picture of you own problematic situation somehow being an invasion of your privacy is a red flag, one of a growing number of red flags. I doubt you're in the witness protection program...

What would it change? If I posted a picture of my car with a snowed bumper just like @bjornb, what would it change? I doubt it could give much information value, Bjorn's picture already does that. I mean, anyone living in a snowy reagion could post such a picture. It doesn't prove the radar failed, it would just show a snowy bumper. We all share stuff online, of course, none of us are truly anonymous, but I think everyone chooses what they wish to share and that's perfectly normal. I'm not sure every such choice is logical or right for me or for anyone, but we're human, we're not always logical.

Now I guess it circles back to your point that you wonder if I even have a Tesla. Again, I'm pretty convinced nothing can change your mind, given that @calisnow vouched for me and I pointed to a thread that indeed had pictures of my Tesla's interior details in it (the one where I tested mats and different accessories on my Model X). Now of course those prove nothing, @calisnow could be lying/be lied to, I could have faked the interior photos I posted, etc., but that goes for the bumper photo too.

Again, these are interior detail photos from my car:

Trying out wrong VIN Tesla mats and third-party Model S goodies on Model X

Here OTOH are links to some of my Model X pre-release analysis:

Model X - What do we (think we) know, June 2015 summary

Here is my Model X story:

My Story: From Model S to Model X Signature reservation, to...?

Also I've made many Photoshops like this:

Speculation: Model X five seater is missing a panel to hide seat bottoms?

or this:

Model X mules - is the nose cone gone?

I think I have contributed tons of info on this forum, and of course a lot of debate.

I think you would do yourself a favor to consider the possibility that the red flags are more raised by your objection to my views, than any real need to doubt my views themselves. It is perfectly fine to disagree with my views, but what you seem to be experiencing is more confirmation bias where you see suspect things that in reality are not, and tend to ignore or downplay evidence to the contrary. I mean, @calisnow just vouched for me and yet in the very next message you talk of red flags again.

Look, I've been on this forum since 2014, when I bought my since sold Model S. I've participated in a whole range of topics, most of which were related to Model X pre-release rumor analysis (while I waited for my car). Trust me, I have one and for the most part I like it as a car very much and intend to keep it for some time.

The simplest explanation - and indeed the real explanation - is that I'm just a bit disillusioned Tesla car owner with some knack and interest in tough debate and nothing more. I came to Tesla in 2014 with crazy-wild love for it all and then a series of bad events and decisions involving Tesla the company has left me a bit less enthused. And when my views get a pushback on TMC, as they often do in a fairly Tesla positive camp as this, well, that feeds my natural instincts to keep debating. So round and round we all go, time and again. That's the simple and real story. I still like the car, though. I liked my Model S too.

And I like TMC and plenty of folks here too, many of whom do not share my views. I am happy to say a few seem to share a mutual feelings there, even with disagreeing on views, which is great.

 

[croman]

I just do not see this issue with AP2. Do I have a magic AP2 car that is snow hardened? Does the Sub zero package signal to Tesla to deliver a car that will work in cold environments?

Been driving for a year and it's snowed many times. Seriously only 2 snow based radar issues in that time, one recently one last winter. I have a YouTube video during heavy snow last year where AP worked great. I use it all the time.

 

[BigD0g]

I just do not see this issue with AP2. Do I have a magic AP2 car that is snow hardened? Does the Sub zero package signal to Tesla to deliver a car that will work in cold environments?

Been driving for a year and it's snowed many times. Seriously only 2 snow based radar issues in that time, one recently one last winter. I have a YouTube video during heavy snow last year where AP worked great. I use it all the time.

Well I can say I have the sub zero package, so it’s clearly not sub zero related, but I do love my heated steering wheel as my car dives into other lanes because of ice road treatments

 

[sauce]

I'd like to chip in quickly here. I don't have AP, but do have the AP2.5 hardware and I will say this: park assist (I assume sonars) are completely useless when snow on bumpers. Not so much of a problem since I know how to park properly, but I must say back in September when I first drove the car out of the SC they really saved my butt since the front end of the MS is way longer than what I used to drive.

I have then relearned my distances so the sonars out of commission is not a critical issue, but nevertheless perplexing to see how fragile they actually are. That and the incessant chimes and screen shouting ''STOP''. Had to cut off the alarms at some point.

Again, nothing critical, but heating seems like a no-brainer when you realise how quickly they become useless in snow.

I will also add my 2 cents about using cruise control in slippery conditions. I think common wisdom would normally dictate not to use cruise control when it gets slippery. In my 25 years (2+ million km) experience driving on the highway for business I have encountered these situations where I would push it with cruise control in deteriorating conditions and I have come close on a few occasions of paying dearly for it.

Problem is, not every cruise control systems will be quick to disable when wheel slippage occurs (Yes, even on modern cars with stability control equipment). For some reason if you don't use your feet driving you will not necessarily sense it as quickly either. And when tires lose contact, a quick but smooth reaction is critical to maintain control of the car. If CC makes it that it is longer for you to sense slippage occurring, then the time you need to regain actual control of the car by getting off of CC and finally correct to regain traction and stability, it may just be too late and you may find yourself hitting a barrier or the car next to you (in snowy conditions, drivers tend to drive closer side-by-side in an effort to keep their cars centered on the road) If the car next to you is incoming the consequences can be dire. Not to mention that if you are surprised by a sudden loss of stability, you may react with a jerk when regaining full drive control of your car, and that too, is the last thing you want to do when your car starts drifting.

So common wisdom should say, why risk it?

 

[croman]

I'd like to chip in quickly here. I don't have AP, but do have the AP2.5 hardware and I will say this: park assist (I assume sonars) are completely useless when snow on bumpers. Not so much of a problem since I know how to park properly, but I must say back in September when I first drove the car out of the SC they really saved my butt since the front end of the MS is way longer than what I used to drive.

I have then relearned my distances so the sonars out of commission is not a critical issue, but nevertheless perplexing to see how fragile they actually are. That and the incessant chimes and screen shouting ''STOP''. Had to cut off the alarms at some point.

Again, nothing critical, but heating seems like a no-brainer when you realise how quickly they become useless in snow.

I will also add my 2 cents about using cruise control in slippery conditions. I think common wisdom would normally dictate not to use cruise control when it gets slippery. In my 25 years (2+ million km) experience driving on the highway for business I have encountered these situations where I would push it with cruise control in deteriorating conditions and I have come close on a few occasions of paying dearly for it.

Problem is, not every cruise control systems will be quick to disable when wheel slippage occurs (Yes, even on modern cars with stability control equipment). For some reason if you don't use your feet driving you will not necessarily sense it as quickly either. And when tires lose contact, a quick but smooth reaction is critical to maintain control of the car. If CC makes it that it is longer for you to sense slippage occurring, then the time you need to regain actual control of the car by getting off of CC and finally correct to regain traction and stability, it may just be too late and you may find yourself hitting a barrier or the car next to you (in snowy conditions, drivers tend to drive closer side-by-side in an effort to keep their cars centered on the road) If the car next to you is incoming the consequences can be dire. Not to mention that if you are surprised by a sudden loss of stability, you may react with a jerk when regaining full drive control of your car, and that too, is the last thing you want to do when your car starts drifting.

So common wisdom should say, why risk it?

If you used AP2 (or 2.5) you'd be quite used to the subtle feeling of the car losing control and your brain would be hypervigilant. Luckily so far AP2 has been great in the rain, snow, ice, sleet, freezing rain, fog, etc.

I do agree that cruise or anything that cuts off your feeling for the road is generally a bad idea but I'm serious that AP2 has me feeling certain parts of the car and how it moves exactly like I do when I'm driving in bad conditions. I also keep my foot hovering over the brake, not to slam it down (unless that's what needs to be done) but rather to disengage AP so I can feather the accelerator as needed. YMMV.

I have been thinking about the snow issue and I believe wet snow is really what mucks up AP and dry snow probably won't affect the radar or the ultrasonics (though even dry snow can compact and become slush due to tire friction).

 

[sauce]

I have been thinking about the snow issue and I believe wet snow is really what mucks up AP and dry snow probably won't affect the radar or the ultrasonics (though even dry snow can compact and become slush due to tire friction).

So far that is what I have seen as well. Of course now with -17C it's gone to pretty frozen solid... I'll let her sit in the sun tomorrow and it should help get the ice crust off no matter how cold it is. At those temps snow and ice just evaporates directly when exposed to sunshine.

Wouldn't be surprised Tesla will do a bit of engineering to take corrective action otherwise AP would be too easily rendered useless and that is not the general idea I believe...