Apartment charging / metering question

[Fyve]

Hello fellow owners.

I recently purchased a M3P and my condo does not have charging solutions currently, but are looking to install 2 chargers in our valet area downstairs. The manager floated the idea of a chargepoint charger, which I am strongly against. The other idea was a 240v plug and using Tesla home chargers, but they do not know how they would be able to meter them / charge owners the usage rate. Is there a simple solution? How can they monitor the usage from the building’s point of view to be able to charge the appropriate fees so they’re not losing $ by giving out free energy?

Side question - is chargepoint a viable faster charging solution as opposed to 240v plug? I do not know charge rates / if they reduce the charge rate appropriately to preserve battery or if their charger will overheat our batteries / charge too fast.

 

[GtiMart]

240V charging will not overheat batteries and there is no need to reduce anything. Whether it's a 240V plug or a Chargepoint doesn't matter. Chargepoint will also be 240V, or maybe 208 (commercial).

 

[Fyve]

So zero difference between chargepoint / 240v and Tesla home charger. Got it. How about the building itself metering? Or would chargepoint handle that portion on its own by just charging us directly the energy cost used from the building itself?

 

[jjrandorin]

The manager floated the idea of a chargepoint charger, which I am strongly against.

Other than the fact you would need to use your J1772 adapter to charge a tesla, why are you "strongly against" a chargepoint charger?

 

[Fyve]

Other than the fact you would need to use your J1772 adapter to charge a tesla, why are you "strongly against" a chargepoint charger?

Cost of the commercial charger + ease of use (including need for adapter) - most EVs here will be Teslas, there are a few in the building already. Which is also why I asked the other question about how we can get an accurate metering / how can the building know how much and who to charge if they go the Tesla home charger route.

 

[rhumbliner]

Since these EVSE’s would be located in the valet area, I’ll assume they would be shared use and not assigned to individual condo owners. In that case the big problem you face is how to invoice the individuals for their energy consumption. You could use some type of EVSE that recognizes a vehicle’s VIN to do so, but I’m not aware of any such device other then Tesla’s SuperCharger. Your other choice is to install some type of EVSE that uses a credit card and then hand your credit card to the valet when they park your car.

 

[Fyve]

Correct. They would be for shared use. That’s the exact question, how can they invoice the individual owners, how can they tell who is charging and when. I guess the simple solution would be to put it in a lock box of some kind where users have to pay a monthly fee for access / usage… but then the other problem is how to make sure a guy doesn’t leave his car there for 3 days and take up the spot. Difficult times!

 

[rhumbliner]

then the other problem is how to make sure a guy doesn’t leave his car there for 3 days and take up the spot.

That’s where Tesla’s SuperCharger (or Urban SuperCharger) would be useful. The financial hit for blocking a site would be a strong incentive for owners to move their car when finished charging.

 

[GtiMart]

Doesn't ChargePoint solve exactly that, how to meter and charge the users? You pay with your ChargePoint card, and the building owner gets its share? Being a shared spot, it makes a lot more sense to use a J1772 standard plug so every EV can use it and not just Teslas.
The problem of people letting their cars in the spot for 3 days is separate from the question of finding the proper charger.

 

[Fyve]

Agreed on the separate issues. I guess the chargepoint charger does fix that, but when you saying chargepoint card just makes me almost puke at the thought of having another 3rd party app/payment processed through them. The plug thing… other cars should adapt to Tesla, the leaders in the market. Didn’t Tesla make their plug open-patent so people can just copy it without repercussions? Other manufacturers should just follow along and stop resisting! Tesla is the superior product in every way imaginable.

 

[brico84]

Definitely steer them away from Chargepoint. I don't have a better option to recommend, but it has been a disaster in our building. We have 13 EV owners out of 300+ units / 1000+ people and they installed a 208v chargepoint a few years ago. They decided recently that the cost of the equipment, which is an astounding $2700+ annual rental fee (not to mention initial installation costs, needs to be passed on to the users of the charger.

End result... nobody is using the charger because nobody wants to pay $0.42 USD/kw and we are stuck with no good solution.

 

[Fyve]

Definitely steer them away from Chargepoint. I don't have a better option to recommend, but it has been a disaster in our building. We have 13 EV owners out of 300+ units / 1000+ people and they installed a 208v chargepoint a few years ago. They decided recently that the cost of the equipment, which is an astounding $2700+ annual rental fee (not to mention initial installation costs, needs to be passed on to the users of the charger.

End result... nobody is using the charger because nobody wants to pay $0.42 USD/kw and we are stuck with no good solution.

Thank you for proving my point about these 3rd parties being a nightmare to work with!! That’s awful. As an owner of my condo, the cost to us should be just a pass-through of the electricity cost. It’s absurd to pass costs through for things that buildings will need to modernize anyway in the future + the annual fee charge would basically be more than the residents here would use in electricity, it makes no sense!

 

[Big Earl]

There are a few alternatives to ChargePoint, which, as mentioned above, can be very expensive in terms of maintenance and equipment leasing/purchasing.

SemaConnect is one, although they have a similar fee structure to ChargePoint.

Liberty Hydra is another - you can install Liberty enabled Clipper Creek charging stations that bill through the Liberty Hydra app. Users pay a fixed fee on top of the cost per kWh. This fee supports the billing platform and is fairly reasonable, especially when compared to the big network guys like ChargePoint and SemaConnect.

Liberty Plugins

www.libertyplugins.com

48A Level 2 EVSE CS-60 Hardwired with Liberty Plugin | ClipperCreek

The Clipper Creek chargers are top-notch, very reliable and will charge faster than the offerings from ChargePoint and SemaConnect.

 

[RTPEV]

The first step is to educate your building management (and perhaps yourselves) on the costs involved. Sure, the electricity is not free, but it's also not equivalent to filling up a tank of gas. Rather than going with a ChargePoint like approach, which frankly, from a convenience and billing standpoint is going to be better overall than having 240V outlets and having to use your mobile connectors (if that's what you were talking about when you say "Tesla Home charger"). The downside of ChargePoint is cost, because it does include the equipment as a service, as well as handling the back-end billing. Usually in a case like this the property would subsidize at least part of the cost in the same sense that they offer other amenities like a swimming pool or an exercise room. I.e. it gives them a competitive advantage. But if you can convince them that the electricity cost is such that they may be able to use a less high tech approach (i.e. a flat monthly fee approach), then they could just dispense with the whole metering aspect of it. Sure, it won't be 100% fair, but at some point you have to worry whether it's worth trying to get this down to the last $1-2/month difference.

Or, you collectively decide that yes, it's worth trying to account for every last kWh, and be able to charge idle fees, or otherwise ramp up costs for excessive users, and then yes, you'll need something like ChargePoint...but you'll end up paying for that capability, and yes, the one or two people that abuse the system by getting away with using $60 worth of electricity for their $45 monthly fee will be stopped, but meanwhile the rest of you that use $30 worth of electricity are going to be paying $50/month!

There are other options, which I'll go into, but I would have to recommend that you either go with a J1772 solution, or at least a mix of Tesla & J1772. While it may be true that you have mostly Teslas at your apartment, Teslas can use a J1772 with an adapter that comes with the car, but for a non-Tesla vehicle to use a Tesla wall connector, they need a fairly expensive adapter. And with new models finally starting to come out, it won't be long before you'll start to see plenty of other brands of EVs out there. And even with a 240V plug and everyone brings their own EVSE solution, most EVs don't come with 240V capable EVSEs (they only support 120V).

Anyway, if you want some other solutions, have a look at EverCharge: EverCharge - EV charging solution for apartments, condominiums, and fleets. and PowerFlex: EV Charging | PowerFlex

Those may or may not be ready for prime time, but they are what you are asking for.

There is also DCC Electric: DCC-9 EVEMS for Electric Vehicle Charging in Condos and Apartments

This is not quite what you are asking for, but maybe it's a direction you want to consider...with this system, the EVSE integrates into each individual meter and performs load sharing with your own apartment so the electricity you use simply shows up on your own bill. Obviously cable would need to be run from the meter to your parking spot, so this may not be practical in all settings.

 

[Fyve]

Thank you for proving my point about these 3rd parties being a nightmare to work with!! That’s awful. As an owner of my condo, the cost to us should be just a pass-through of the electricity cost. It’s absurd to pass costs through for things that buildings will need to modernize anyway in the future + the annual fee charge would basically be more than the residents here would use in electricity, it makes no sense!

Also of note - Tesla wrote me back suggesting Evercharge. Anyone have experience with those?

There are a few alternatives to ChargePoint, which, as mentioned above, can be very expensive in terms of maintenance and equipment leasing/purchasing.

SemaConnect is one, although they have a similar fee structure to ChargePoint.

Liberty Hydra is another - you can install Liberty enabled Clipper Creek charging stations that bill through the Liberty Hydra app. Users pay a fixed fee on top of the cost per kWh. This fee supports the billing platform and is fairly reasonable, especially when compared to the big network guys like ChargePoint and SemaConnect.

Liberty Plugins

www.libertyplugins.com

48A Level 2 EVSE CS-60 Hardwired with Liberty Plugin | ClipperCreek

The Clipper Creek chargers are top-notch, very reliable and will charge faster than the offerings from ChargePoint and SemaConnect.

thank you! Will check out these other options also so I can make a good recommendation to our board. I have some research to do!

 

[RTPEV]

Oops, forgot one...this one might actually be the best bet: Atom Power: PURPL™ Advanced EV Charging

 

[Sophias_dad]

No one has mentioned that the Gen3 HPWC can recognize and bill Tesla cars(through Tesla itself, I believe) if its configured right and has a wifi connection. I don't know the setup details or if Tesla takes a cut, but I'm sure it has been done.

 

[Fyve]

The first step is to educate your building management (and perhaps yourselves) on the costs involved. Sure, the electricity is not free, but it's also not equivalent to filling up a tank of gas. Rather than going with a ChargePoint like approach, which frankly, from a convenience and billing standpoint is going to be better overall than having 240V outlets and having to use your mobile connectors (if that's what you were talking about when you say "Tesla Home charger"). The downside of ChargePoint is cost, because it does include the equipment as a service, as well as handling the back-end billing. Usually in a case like this the property would subsidize at least part of the cost in the same sense that they offer other amenities like a swimming pool or an exercise room. I.e. it gives them a competitive advantage. But if you can convince them that the electricity cost is such that they may be able to use a less high tech approach (i.e. a flat monthly fee approach), then they could just dispense with the whole metering aspect of it. Sure, it won't be 100% fair, but at some point you have to worry whether it's worth trying to get this down to the last $1-2/month difference.

Or, you collectively decide that yes, it's worth trying to account for every last kWh, and be able to charge idle fees, or otherwise ramp up costs for excessive users, and then yes, you'll need something like ChargePoint...but you'll end up paying for that capability, and yes, the one or two people that abuse the system by getting away with using $60 worth of electricity for their $45 monthly fee will be stopped, but meanwhile the rest of you that use $30 worth of electricity are going to be paying $50/month!

There are other options, which I'll go into, but I would have to recommend that you either go with a J1772 solution, or at least a mix of Tesla & J1772. While it may be true that you have mostly Teslas at your apartment, Teslas can use a J1772 with an adapter that comes with the car, but for a non-Tesla vehicle to use a Tesla wall connector, they need a fairly expensive adapter. And with new models finally starting to come out, it won't be long before you'll start to see plenty of other brands of EVs out there. And even with a 240V plug and everyone brings their own EVSE solution, most EVs don't come with 240V capable EVSEs (they only support 120V).

Anyway, if you want some other solutions, have a look at EverCharge: EverCharge - EV charging solution for apartments, condominiums, and fleets. and PowerFlex: EV Charging | PowerFlex

Those may or may not be ready for prime time, but they are what you are asking for.

There is also DCC Electric: DCC-9 EVEMS for Electric Vehicle Charging in Condos and Apartments

This is not quite what you are asking for, but maybe it's a direction you want to consider...with this system, the EVSE integrates into each individual meter and performs load sharing with your own apartment so the electricity you use simply shows up on your own bill. Obviously cable would need to be run from the meter to your parking spot, so this may not be practical in all settings.

Good info here. Tesla themselves wrote me back saying they recommend Evercharge. I will take all of this into account.

The first step is to educate your building management (and perhaps yourselves) on the costs involved. Sure, the electricity is not free, but it's also not equivalent to filling up a tank of gas. Rather than going with a ChargePoint like approach, which frankly, from a convenience and billing standpoint is going to be better overall than having 240V outlets and having to use your mobile connectors (if that's what you were talking about when you say "Tesla Home charger"). The downside of ChargePoint is cost, because it does include the equipment as a service, as well as handling the back-end billing. Usually in a case like this the property would subsidize at least part of the cost in the same sense that they offer other amenities like a swimming pool or an exercise room. I.e. it gives them a competitive advantage. But if you can convince them that the electricity cost is such that they may be able to use a less high tech approach (i.e. a flat monthly fee approach), then they could just dispense with the whole metering aspect of it. Sure, it won't be 100% fair, but at some point you have to worry whether it's worth trying to get this down to the last $1-2/month difference.

Or, you collectively decide that yes, it's worth trying to account for every last kWh, and be able to charge idle fees, or otherwise ramp up costs for excessive users, and then yes, you'll need something like ChargePoint...but you'll end up paying for that capability, and yes, the one or two people that abuse the system by getting away with using $60 worth of electricity for their $45 monthly fee will be stopped, but meanwhile the rest of you that use $30 worth of electricity are going to be paying $50/month!

There are other options, which I'll go into, but I would have to recommend that you either go with a J1772 solution, or at least a mix of Tesla & J1772. While it may be true that you have mostly Teslas at your apartment, Teslas can use a J1772 with an adapter that comes with the car, but for a non-Tesla vehicle to use a Tesla wall connector, they need a fairly expensive adapter. And with new models finally starting to come out, it won't be long before you'll start to see plenty of other brands of EVs out there. And even with a 240V plug and everyone brings their own EVSE solution, most EVs don't come with 240V capable EVSEs (they only support 120V).

Anyway, if you want some other solutions, have a look at EverCharge: EverCharge - EV charging solution for apartments, condominiums, and fleets. and PowerFlex: EV Charging | PowerFlex

Those may or may not be ready for prime time, but they are what you are asking for.

There is also DCC Electric: DCC-9 EVEMS for Electric Vehicle Charging in Condos and Apartments

This is not quite what you are asking for, but maybe it's a direction you want to consider...with this system, the EVSE integrates into each individual meter and performs load sharing with your own apartment so the electricity you use simply shows up on your own bill. Obviously cable would need to be run from the meter to your parking spot, so this may not be practical in all settings.

Good info here. Tesla themselves recommended Evercharge. What I meant is the Tesla wall connector would be most practical, but it doesn’t solve the metering issue and assigning proper cost to whoever is using it. I think I’m most in favor of having them run a 240V outlet straight to my parking space, which is an option they want to offer, but the cost of the work would be on me. Might not be too feasible if it’s in the thousands of dollars to do it. I will do my due dilligence and then recommend them the proper and most efficient route. I’m finding the answers here very useful. Thank you

 

[brico84]

Good info here. Tesla themselves wrote me back saying they recommend Evercharge. I will take all of this into account.

Good info here. Tesla themselves recommended Evercharge. What I meant is the Tesla wall connector would be most practical, but it doesn’t solve the metering issue and assigning proper cost to whoever is using it. I think I’m most in favor of having them run a 240V outlet straight to my parking space, which is an option they want to offer, but the cost of the work would be on me. Might not be too feasible if it’s in the thousands of dollars to do it. I will do my due dilligence and then recommend them the proper and most efficient route. I’m finding the answers here very useful. Thank you

I so wish I had this option...

 

[Big Earl]

No one has mentioned that the Gen3 HPWC can recognize and bill Tesla cars(through Tesla itself, I believe) if its configured right and has a wifi connection. I don't know the setup details or if Tesla takes a cut, but I'm sure it has been done.

That hasn’t actually been implemented yet. Maybe in two weeks.