Ask Me Anything -- Motor Trend's Jonny Lieberman Defends Picking the Benz

[dsm363]

Actually, since we did the test, it's the battery pack.

2013 Tesla Model S P85+ Long-Term Update 4 - Motor Trend

Did you have access to the screen Tesla hides from users that shows motor/battery/inverter temperature?

 

[Canuck]

what are car reviews if not 100% a persons opinion of a car?

It's the basis of the opinion that is important. The more knowledgeable (and independent) the reviewer, the better the opinion. These are the foundations that give rise to credibility -- and we only want to read credible reviews. It's a waste of time to read a grade 6 kid's review because we expect nonsensical comments like:


"TRUTH! as the kids would say."

"And if you really cared... Leaf."

"Even if I had a Supercharger in my bed and only had to drive 5 feet"

"Call me weird"

I know these are not in the review, they are in this thread. But if they are actually the words of the author of the review, he has undermined his credibility. I have lost all respect for the reviewer. He shows a complete lack of professionalism and judgment. I was really hoping it was a prank because I'd like to think his employer would hire a better quality reviewer. I don't mind the S-series being picked the better car (well, okay, I do mind it) but at least if the review was supported here with knowledgeable and thoughtful arguments it could be accepted. Instead, we are fed drivel in support of the decision by the likes of: ...I drive 300 to 500 miles a day... I'm weird.. types of arguments. That's almost the equivalent to the 6 year old's "I know you are are but what am I?"

 

[jonnylieberman]

I asked a similar question on youtube, but here it is again:
If both the Model S and the S550 were contenders for Car of the Year on the same year, would you have picked the S550 over the Model S? And why?

Now there's a GREAT question. Boy, that's very difficult to answer. Car of the Year -- unlike the video in question -- is NOT a comparison test. We use a whole bunch of criteria to determine the winner, and please always keep in mind the OF THE YEAR part. Many people discount it and say, "You picked the Renault Alliance!" Not, "In 1983 you picked the Renault Alliance -- what was the competition?"

So... these two...

They both hit it out of the park in terms of Performance of Intended Function. And Safety. Value is tricky, because they're so expensive. But as you ALL have pointed out, the Telsa is cheap to run. However, the S-Class is all new and they lowered the price (and they sold over 530,000 of the previous gen). Tesla would beat the Benz in terms of Advancement in Design (though you could argue that the Model S looks too much like a conventional car and they could have made it wilder). Efficiency, no question here, Telsa murders it, though I should point out that the Mercedes gets better mileage than the car it replaces and makes more power and we've just been talking about the S550, not the hybrid, diesel or (coming soon) plug-in. But yeah, Tesla here. Then there's Engineering Excellence. I'd give it to the Mercedes. Everything not only works, but works freakishly well. The Tesla's a moon shot, but there are bugs. The car I used for the video was built in April of 2014 and the video was filmed in... April of 2014. All sorts of stuff was wrong (faulty traction and stability control, problems charging, a buzzing speaker). The Benz is just so much better made.

All that said, one of the big things we look for at Car of the Year is how far a car moves the needle. Another is how a car stacks up against its competitive set. The Tesla kicks the needle into next week. Totally advances the state of the art. However, the Benz is so far superior than the cars it competes against, that we'd have to take that into account. In fact, I would say the gap between the S-Class and the other cars it directly competes against is wider than we've ever seen.

So... I'd vote for the Model S. It really was a game changer. I still think the Benz is a better overall car, but for an Of The Year award, the Tesla would win it.

An anecdote if I may. I recently drove the BMW i8. A brilliant car. I came back to the office raving about it. My boss asked me if I liked it better than the Model S. I said yes, in like driving it more. Then he asked something interesting. "Are you more impressed with the BMW than you were by the Tesla the first time you drove it?" I answered no, absolutely not.

Hope that sheds some light.

 

[Doug_G]

Actually, since we did the test, it's the battery pack.

2013 Tesla Model S P85+ Long-Term Update 4 - Motor Trend

Uh, no, you listened to a half-assed theory from a motorcycle manufacturer that does not have active pack heating. The Model S does.

It's the motor that gets too hot first. I believe the problem is that there's no easy way to cool the inner spool of an induction motor.

The Roadster has temperature readouts for the electronics, pack, and motor and it's the always motor that gets hot first. The Model S drive train is basically a scaled up Roadster drive train. The motor has liquid cooling but it also puts out a lot more power.

Another way you can tell is that five minutes in the pits and you can barrel out again. There's no way the pack cools down that quickly. The motor is a lot less massive.

 

[jonnylieberman]

It's the basis of the opinion that is important. The more knowledgeable (and independent) the reviewer, the better the opinion. These are the foundations that give rise to credibility -- and we only want to read credible reviews. It's a waste of time to read a grade 6 kid's review because we expect nonsensical comments like:


"TRUTH! as the kids would say."

"And if you really cared... Leaf."

"Even if I had a Supercharger in my bed and only had to drive 5 feet"

"Call me weird"

I know these are not in the review, they are in this thread. But if they are actually the words of the author of the review, he has undermined his credibility. I have lost all respect for the reviewer. He shows a complete lack of professionalism and judgment. I was really hoping it was a prank because I'd like to think his employer would hire a better quality reviewer. I don't mind the S-series being picked the better car (well, okay, I do mind it) but at least if the review was supported here with knowledgeable and thoughtful arguments it could be accepted. Instead, we are fed drivel in support of the decision by the likes of: ...I drive 300 to 500 miles a day... I'm weird.. types of arguments. That's almost the equivalent to the 6 year old's "I know you are are but what am I?"

You've lost all credibility with me x2.

 

[callmesam]

Now there's a GREAT question. Boy, that's very difficult to answer. Car of the Year -- unlike the video in question -- is NOT a comparison test. We use a whole bunch of criteria to determine the winner, and please always keep in mind the OF THE YEAR part. Many people discount it and say, "You picked the Renault Alliance!" Not, "In 1983 you picked the Renault Alliance -- what was the competition?"

So... these two...

They both hit it out of the park in terms of Performance of Intended Function. And Safety. Value is tricky, because they're so expensive. But as you ALL have pointed out, the Telsa is cheap to run. However, the S-Class is all new and they lowered the price (and they sold over 530,000 of the previous gen). Tesla would beat the Benz in terms of Advancement in Design (though you could argue that the Model S looks too much like a conventional car and they could have made it wilder). Efficiency, no question here, Telsa murders it, though I should point out that the Mercedes gets better mileage than the car it replaces and makes more power and we've just been talking about the S550, not the hybrid, diesel or (coming soon) plug-in. But yeah, Tesla here. Then there's Engineering Excellence. I'd give it to the Mercedes. Everything not only works, but works freakishly well. The Tesla's a moon shot, but there are bugs. The car I used for the video was built in April of 2014 and the video was filmed in... April of 2014. All sorts of stuff was wrong (faulty traction and stability control, problems charging, a buzzing speaker). The Benz is just so much better made.

All that said, one of the big things we look for at Car of the Year is how far a car moves the needle. Another is how a car stacks up against its competitive set. The Tesla kicks the needle into next week. Totally advances the state of the art. However, the Benz is so far superior than the cars it competes against, that we'd have to take that into account. In fact, I would say the gap between the S-Class and the other cars it directly competes against is wider than we've ever seen.

So... I'd vote for the Model S. It really was a game changer. I still think the Benz is a better overall car, but for an Of The Year award, the Tesla would win it.

An anecdote if I may. I recently drove the BMW i8. A brilliant car. I came back to the office raving about it. My boss asked me if I liked it better than the Model S. I said yes, in like driving it more. Then he asked something interesting. "Are you more impressed with the BMW than you were by the Tesla the first time you drove it?" I answered no, absolutely not.

Hope that sheds some light.

This . . .

Thanks Jonny for showing up here and walking into the lion's den.

1. Tesla has admitted that the interior is NOT luxury. Maybe soon in China? It's the difference between sitting in an Eames chair and a park bench. Two words . . . lateral support.

2. Active safety. Tesla is at the rear of the pack. It's understandable, but there are claims to be closer to autopilot. That's going to be another game changer as big or bigger than electrification. Seriously.

Fasten Your Seatbelts: Google's Driverless Car Is Worth Trillions (Part 1) - Forbes

3. Fit, finish, problems. Electrical components usually fail immediately or last (almost) forever. This is a nearly two years into production, in July, and things need to continue to improve.

4. The 550 is hypnotic. It's not JUST the lights, envelopment, sound, massage backrest. The car is Plush!

5. Most of us wanted to be part of changing the world. It's important that we can reduce our carbon footprint by buying solar or living near hydro, expand next gen nukes and clean coal (if possible).

6. Buying a Tesla is just step 1. Not the entire shootin' match. 40% of EV owners buy solar panels.

Owners Of Solar Panels EVs Get Solar 1st, 85.5% Buy Their Solar Panels (CT Survey Results) | CleanTechnica

7. If you put someone who's a novice (and often expert) into the Tesla, the car can be absolutely life changing.

 

[jonnylieberman]

From the video, and the fact that it made the cut from hours of recording, I got the sense that range anxiety was one of the few heavyweight deciding factors.
I was rather shocked (not necessarily surprised, being journalism) to find out in this thread that you reviewed an EV without a proper power source at home and didn't mention it in the review.
If, like about 99% of Model S owners, you didn't have to think about filling up and always started each day full, how much difference would it make in your opinion?
On the flip-side, if like most people with an S550 who drive like you, you had to pay for the gas at 17mpg without compensation, would that also impact your opinion? I'm going on the assumption that Motor Trend covers the cost of gas for car reviews.
If you factor those in, I don't really see how the S550 comes close to the Model S, even though it is a night club on wheels. I have a feeling the lights will get a little boring after a few months (as pretty lights have always done for me before), really just something to show off and has pretty much zero impact on actual driving experience.

I'm buying Model S because I don't like to waste time and money on gas and maintenance, and I like the flexibility of choice with how cleanly my vehicle is powered and where I fill it up. Also safety and reliability was a major factor, something that turned me away from the Leaf or Focus Electric as a stop-gap car. Just to name a few of very many reasons. Before Tesla, I would have never imagined spending over maybe $30k for a car if I were to buy one new. In fact, I can't recall spending more than $1k on anything other than TSLA stock and my Model S deposit, I'm that crazy about saving money and that crazy about Tesla.
I should say that it is my opinion that Model S is the best car, for me in particular. Given the very many different factors that make a car, it is not very wise to say that a car is the "best" or "better" car outside the context of opinion let alone the target market, especially in a professional review subjected to the public microscope.

Just so everyone's clear, a whole bunch of stuff is being conflated. When we started reviewing the cars for this particular comparison, not only do we have a two 220 volt chargers at the office, but we're three miles from a supercharger station. The not having a 220-volt charger at my house, oh my! comments were me explaining about some range anxiety I experienced. Saying range anxiety doesn't exist is... it's silly. And it's something that must be talked about. So, in the video when I was talking about range anxiety I was explaining that it's something an S-Class owner just doesn't have to worry about. And they don't have to worry about temperature (or weather -- the S550 is AWD) and how that's part of the luxury experience and one of the many ways that the S-Class is a better car. That's all. Now, when battery technology improves and Superchargers replace gas stations then range anxiety won't be an issue. Until then...

 

[Canuck]

You've lost all credibility with me x2.

I see, so I point out your childish comments and your comeback is the oldest school yard comment in the books. Perhaps you can defend the reason for your childish comments that I have quoted instead of "times two'ing" me?

 

[jonnylieberman]

I see, so I point out your childish comments and your comment is the oldest school yard comment in the books. Perhaps you can defend the reason for your childish comments that I have quoted instead of "times two'ing" me?

You're attacking the messenger, which is fine. But you can't say the Model S is better because it's more efficient and then turn around and play down the better efficiency of the Leaf when I point it out because it doesn't have a Tesla badge. So, I short handed my comments because if you can't see that inconsistency in your own argument then I can't help you.

Plus, for a Canadian, you're being rude. I say this as a proud half-Canuck.

 

[CHARGER]

Oh yeah, the Benz will depreciate like a rock.

For what reasons?

 

[dsm363]

I don't doubt range anxiety exists more in EVs than ICEs but dozens of ICEs run out of gas a day. I guess those people should get more anxious?

What some if us have trying to impress on you is that going to the track and coming home near empty is not a normal usage pattern for luxury cars. You did bring up only having 120V at home. That and your bit about 70 miles of range left and needing to drive 60 miles not being luxurious lead to confusion I think. Either way unless you have driven the Model S day in and day out for a month or more talking about range anxiety like it is a daily concern for the normal owner you are missing the point people here are trying to make.

You also talk about 440V 90A in the video when the Amps are much higher to start. They will go up to 120 kW of power and soon 135 kW so that is one error in the video.

 

[SFOTurtle]

You're attacking the messenger, which is fine. But you can't say the Model S is better because it's more efficient and then turn around and play down the better efficiency of the Leaf when I point it out because it doesn't have a Tesla badge. So, I short handed my comments because if you can't see that inconsistency in your own argument then I can't help you.

Plus, for a Canadian, you're being rude. I say this as a proud half-Canuck.

Actually, Canuck did not attack the messenger but attacked the arguments. No ad hominem attack was made. And there were numerous posts pointing out the fallacy in the argument about using the Leaf as a model of efficiency, to which you never responded (at least on the merits).

 

[Canuck]

You're attacking the messenger, which is fine. But you can't say the Model S is better because it's more efficient and then turn around and play down the better efficiency of the Leaf when I point it out because it doesn't have a Tesla badge. So, I short handed my comments because if you can't see that inconsistency in your own argument then I can't help you.

Plus, for a Canadian, you're being rude. I say this as a proud half-Canuck.

Let's review:

You say this:

Originally Posted by jonnylieberman
... if the energy going into a Model S is clean, yay! But if it's dirty, it's dirty and then it's hard to make the environmental argument.

I point out you are wrong by reference to the scientific studies. You never acknowledge your mistake but say "drive a Leaf". I respond by saying if that's your argument, why not tell me to ride a bike. You are reviewing a Model S vs. S - series. Not a Leaf. The Leaf is not relevant to the conversation.

I do not engage in ad hominem attacks. Every time I responded, I did so by specific reference to your own words. Review all my posts and you will see that.

I guess the Canadian comment was an attempt at a joke. In reality, none of my posts are rude to you. I like to deal with the facts. None of this is personal.

By the way, I do own a Leaf too. And if you think I'm a Tesla cheerleader, you clearly haven't read my posts here. That's fine, I wouldn't expect you to, but your "Tesla badge" comment required a response.

 

[DaveT]

I don't know what to make of this thread. :crying:

 

[StephenM]

I think the video review was well done and jonnylieberman is being somewhat hazed by some of our community. Yes, there are inaccuracies and a bit of EV ignorance displayed, but overall the vibe from the video was not negative IMO. Anyone who knows anything at all about the cars being reviewed here would know that Jonny's final decision was more an indication of who Jonny is than which car is better for them. I couldn't care less about LED disco lights or laser cut speaker grilles, so even if I didn't already own the Model S I'm sure I would still choose it after his review. Thanks for subjecting yourself to the flogging here, Jonny. That in itself was impressive, though some of your responses left something to be desired (no, an engine is NOT going to help you in a collision. It doesn't matter what kind).

 

[dsm363]

You're attacking the messenger, which is fine. But you can't say the Model S is better because it's more efficient and then turn around and play down the better efficiency of the Leaf when I point it out because it doesn't have a Tesla badge.

You can. Well most of us aren't saying the Model S is better just because it is more efficient. There are many more factors involved. Sure the Leaf is more efficient than the Model S P85+ but can the Leaf out accelerate the S550? No. For a car that can get almost 90 mpge when driven normally, the P85+ is a beast that can also be a sedate commuter car.

Can you at least acknowledge that having a large piece of metal in an engine in front of the driver doesn't make that person safer? If not, please explain.

 

[spentan]

 

[jonnylieberman]

Can you at least acknowledge that having a large piece of metal in an engine in front of the driver doesn't make that person safer? If not, please explain.

Depends on how the car is designed. If you're talking about a 1959 Cadillac, the engine makes the car more dangerous because no one thought about crash safety back then, at least not in terms of engineering. The story is completely different with modern cars. Engines can be part of the crash structure, just like wheels and tires can. It's all in the design. If you're claiming that the S550 is unsafe because it has an engine, that's simply ludicrous.

 

[abasile]

I have no problem with the review (other than maybe some quibbles over the "range anxiety" bit) and am inclined to agree with Jonny that the S550 is quite impressive, and is a "better" car from the standpoint of luxury, comfort, and features. The Model S shouldn't get a free pass because it's electric; rather, this goes to show that more work is now needed to make it truly the "best car" in the world.

That said, as one who hopes to acquire a Model X at some point, I personally have very little interest in driving any expensive car that is not electric. Even my Leaf makes me happier than a Mercedes could, simply because it is part of a revolution in transportation that rejects total dependence on fossil fuels. However, I do not expect all car buyers to think this way and I applaud Tesla Motors for winning over many who simply want a "cool" car.

 

[dsm363]

Depends on how the car is designed. If you're talking about a 1959 Cadillac, the engine makes the car more dangerous because no one thought about crash safety back then, at least not in terms of engineering. The story is completely different with modern cars. Engines can be part of the crash structure, just like wheels and tires can. It's all in the design. If you're claiming that the S550 is unsafe because it has an engine, that's simply ludicrous.

Did I say that? If you could point to the post I said just because a car has an engine it is unsafe then that was an error on my part. You seemed to indicate you thought the S550 was safer than the Model S in a frontal collision because it was so well designed and had a large engine to help absorb impact. I'm saying not having an engine up front and designing the entire front of the car to be a crumple zone is safer. Tesla doesn't need to design a break away engine in order to protect the occupants. There is no engine up front. Can you point to any crash testing data? I don't doubt the Mercedes S550 is a very safe car though. Can you go into a little more detail about how wheels and tires are part of the crash structure? I don't think I am familiar with that aspect of crash safety. I would argue the Model S is also a modern car and without a large engine up front, they were able to take the next step in designing safety into the structure of the car.

Since you seem to drive about 250 miles a day and average around 16mpg is seems in the S550, what would your annual fuel costs be between the two cars? There are many aspects to what makes a car 'better'. You just seem to have set the value higher in some areas that others here have which is fine. There is no one best car in the world for every person anyway.