Audi, Porsche and Mercedes preparing a rival for Tesla

[Johan]

Audi were probably pretty far along with the R8 e-tron but they scrapped the whole thing when the Model S came to market. They would have been laughed at if they released a 2-seater with much poorer range and acceleration at a higher price than the Model S. They will really strugge with their mythical electric Q8 too, since they are too late to the party and IMO the only way for them to get in to the market will be to initially sell it at a loss, if they are to compete with the Model X. I.e. if any of these audi BEVs ever come in to existense (the A3 is a PHEV).

 

[MassModel3]

Ah, the e-tron. I kept waiting for them to restart that program - there were great promises (goes back to RobStark's vaporware comments). I didn't know the Model S was part of the reason it was cancelled, but it makes sense.

One of the things Audi promised with the e-tron was inductive charging -- park your car over a charging mat in your garage and charging begins automatically. That's cool! Okay, it woulda been cool...

 

[sandpiper]

The Germans will struggle with this. They do things very well, but they are rigidly procedural and so it takes them a long time to make a major change. 2018/2021 would not surprise me in the least.

A long range electric car is more challenging than a hybrid or short range electric because you can't simply re-purpose an existing platform. To get long range, the only logical location for the large battery in in the floor. Once you do that, the entire structure of the car has to be redesigned from scratch - and that means new EVERYTHING. That's a major undertaking.

I think you're going have competing 400 km range electrics out of Ford & GM far sooner than out of Germany. The US auto companies certainly have their flaws but they react faster. I bet we'll see something by model year 2017. Of course, Tesla will be a couple of steps ahead by then.

It's astounding that Tesla was able to do this from scratch so quickly with minimal resources. And meanwhile the big manufacturers with the big bucks are still stumbling around in circles.

It reminds me of that scene from Ironman, where Obadiah is grabbing one of his researchers by the throat, hollering "TONY STARK MADE THIS IN A CAVE!". And the researcher glumly responds "I'm not Tony Stark!". Okay... a bit of an exaggeration, but even so the parallel is there.

 

[Johan]

It reminds me of that scene from Ironman, where Obadiah is grabbing one of his researchers by the throat, hollering "TONY STARK MADE THIS IN A CAVE!". And the researcher glumly responds "I'm not Tony Stark!". Okay... a bit of an exaggeration, but even so the parallel is there.

 

[Zaxxon]

I stopped using GoogleTranslate and use Bing's version. Instead of 20 words there's a limit of 5000 characters: http://www.bing.com/translator/

Oh, and they translate from and to Klingon too

If you view a page using Google Chrome and Chrome sees it's not in your native language, it will offer to translate the whole page for you with one click.

 

[ecarfan]

If you view a page using Google Chrome and Chrome sees it's not in your native language, it will offer to translate the whole page for you with one click.

Thanks for the tip! I tried that and got the message "The translation failed because of a server error". I'll try again later.

 

[Zaxxon]

Strange. I tried it on the linked page just before posting and it went through.

 

[CliffG]

Oh, and they translate from and to Klingon too

Wait. The Klingons are coming out with an EV? Will it have a cloaking device? :tongue: (I'm guessing they have a better chance than the hide-bound Germans or Big3.)

 

[BrianC]

Wait. The Klingons are coming out with an EV? Will it have a cloaking device? :tongue: (I'm guessing they have a better chance than the hide-bound Germans or Big3.)

Just wait until you see how fast the 0-60 time is as well :scared:

 

[rcc]

The Germans will struggle with this. They do things very well, but they are rigidly procedural and so it takes them a long time to make a major change. 2018/2021 would not surprise me in the least.

A long range electric car is more challenging than a hybrid or short range electric because you can't simply re-purpose an existing platform. To get long range, the only logical location for the large battery in in the floor. Once you do that, the entire structure of the car has to be redesigned from scratch - and that means new EVERYTHING. That's a major undertaking.

I think you're going have competing 400 km range electrics out of Ford & GM far sooner than out of Germany. The US auto companies certainly have their flaws but they react faster. I bet we'll see something by model year 2017. Of course, Tesla will be a couple of steps ahead by then.

It's astounding that Tesla was able to do this from scratch so quickly with minimal resources. And meanwhile the big manufacturers with the big bucks are still stumbling around in circles.

It reminds me of that scene from Ironman, where Obadiah is grabbing one of his researchers by the throat, hollering "TONY STARK MADE THIS IN A CAVE!". And the researcher glumly responds "I'm not Tony Stark!". Okay... a bit of an exaggeration, but even so the parallel is there.

Your point about the impact of the large battery on vehicle design is a really good one.

But I think the US companies are going to have a problem too. You need the chassis, body, powertrain folks to all work together to put together something totally new in a new way.

Unless they stand up a totally new group (like a Saturn division), do you see the US companies being able to do this? I don't but maybe I'm too cynical.

 

[sandpiper]

Your point about the impact of the large battery on vehicle design is a really good one.

But I think the US companies are going to have a problem too. You need the chassis, body, powertrain folks to all work together to put together something totally new in a new way.

Unless they stand up a totally new group (like a Saturn division), do you see the US companies being able to do this? I don't but maybe I'm too cynical.

I don't think they'll have an easy time. But I think they'll be able to execute much more quickly than the Germans. There are positives and negatives to the cultural differences between North America and German companies. US companies are generally faster moving, more freewheeling and more open to rapid change. This often leads to a less refined product - but they get there faster and with less expense. That's just a personal observation that comes from dealing with both cultures.

 

[Duckjybe]

The young Audi engineer that suggested the volume go to 11 got fired!:smile:

 

[eepic]

And that front door, you have to "dive" beneath it, or else risk banging your head when entering the car.

And poor cyclists are going to get decapitated by the dozen

 

[David99]

The Germans will struggle with this. They do things very well, but they are rigidly procedural and so it takes them a long time to make a major change. 2018/2021 would not surprise me in the least.

A long range electric car is more challenging than a hybrid or short range electric because you can't simply re-purpose an existing platform. To get long range, the only logical location for the large battery in in the floor. Once you do that, the entire structure of the car has to be redesigned from scratch - and that means new EVERYTHING. That's a major undertaking.

Who are 'the Germans'? Different companies with different strategies and different markets, they just happen to have their headquarters in one country. Manufacturing and development is all over the world. BMW already did what you say would take them a long time. They developed a completely new electric car and a new manufacturing process for carbon fiber for the mass market. Yes the i3 is a short range car, but that's a marketing/sales decision, not a technical decision. They saw more selling and profit potential in a city car than a luxury sedan. But there is obviously no lack in ability.

I also see a lot of comments how other manufacturers are 'behind'. Tesla is certainly ahead in making selling a higher end EV, but the sales numbers are peanuts compared to the numbers of ICE cars and this won't change dramatically in the next 5 years. We all love Tesla, but when it comes to making decision on the level of a top car manufacturer and what makes them profitable, a car that sells 20-30k units a year is really a low priority.

I wish all manufacturers would focus on EVs right away and phase out ICE cars as fast as possible, but they are thinking in numbers and profit. Tesla has nothing but EVs so yes they are going full force and trying to make it as successful as possible. Other car manufacturers have different products and decide based on profit on those. They are not in a hurry.

I think EV vs ICE is like CTR vs flat screen TVs. It took many years for the market to completely change. Now the CRTs are history. TVs have a much shorter life span than cars and cost much less, so the market for cars will change slower.

 

[miimura]

BMW already...developed a completely new electric car and a new manufacturing process for carbon fiber for the mass market. Yes the i3 is a short range car, but that's a marketing/sales decision, not a technical decision. They saw more selling and profit potential in a city car than a luxury sedan. But there is obviously no lack in ability.

This "marketing/sales decision" also happens to avoid taking sales away from any existing model in their own lineup.

 

[ChadS]

This "marketing/sales decision" also happens to avoid taking sales away from any existing model in their own lineup.

Very true. Although in BMW's case, I think (though of course I am guessing) they have a plan. I think they are starting with a halo car (the i8) and a conquest car (the i3) with the intention of dragging a lot of NEW customers in to BMW showrooms WITHOUT cannibalizing their existing sales. The promise of new, non-cannibalizing customers is the best way to get dealers to like the i brand, which may otherwise seem to represent (to the dealer) more work to sell with less income from service.

Once the dealers are in on the i brand, BMW can then introduce i models that are more like BMW's other cars, and then there will be some cannibalization.

 

[ckessel]

"Audi plans to release a rival to the Model X in 2018... possibly 2021 Mercedes..."

Yea, that's the part that stood out to me too.

4 years from now...they'll have a car that might be what the S is today. It'll pale next to new Teslas and fail. And Audi will claim "it tried an electric car and there's not enough of a market."

 

[Arb1ter]

Yea, that's the part that stood out to me too.

4 years from now...they'll have a car that might be what the S is today. It'll pale next to new Teslas and fail. And Audi will claim "it tried an electric car and there's not enough of a market."

I don't think that excuse will convince even German media if Tesla continues to succeed.

 

[xhawk101]

This German news-article contains no news at all. It is only written to give the people in Germany a proud feeling about the German car-manufacturers. But the truth is that not one of the German car-manufacturers can compete with Tesla Motors. They just cannot come up with a car that could come anywhere close to the Tesla Model S. And it just doesn't look like that they will be able to do that in the next 5 years either.

And that's from a guy named "Benz"

 

[Tasdevil]

I think these car companies are going about it the wrong way.
The race is to make an affordable electric car with a long range.