Audi Q6 e-tron EV

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger - for heavens sake man give up with the "Audi are the only credible competitor" stuff. They're not. Period.

There's a ton of competitors coming, writing Jaguar off as only a compliance car is doing them a huge disservice.

Mercedes-Benz speeds up the launch timeline for 10 new electric vehicles
BMW is rumored to unveil an all-electric 3 Series in September to compete with Tesla’s Model 3
Volvo says its first all-electric vehicle is coming in 2019 with battery packs up to 100 kWh

how many more do you want?

I repeat that MB are on the agenda, have a battery plant in the making and

I never said Audi is the only credible competitor, you misunderstand. I am saying Audi is the first serious response to Tesla in large-battery premium BEV and autonomous. That response starts in 2018, not 2019, not 2020, which makes them first. In my estimation.

MB and Volvo are serious efforts as well, but they are behind the Audi's schedule by at least a year, IMO and your links seem to agree. I would not dismiss any of these three companies at all, nor am I trying to.

Jaguar - they will also get there with I-Pace probably in 2018, which I actually might buy personally, but I'm clear eyed enough to see that's just a low-volume gimmick in comparison to the German (and Swedish/Chinese) efforts.

frankly VAG Audi are a thoroughly disreputable manufacturer with nothing original to offer other than vaporware to date. Of the Germans MB are the most credible so far.

I get it that that's a driving opinion in this thread. I simply disagree on what it all means: unlike the other Germans, Audi actually built and sold a high-performance, large-battery BEV (the R8 e-tron), and are now roadtesting a new production car for 2018. Mercedes has got nothing but compliance efforts so far on the market and BMW is dabbling with who knows what these days. For me, Mercedes is more about press releases, than Audi.

Neither have been "good" about BEVs, historically, of course. They have been terrible.

 

[tescroft]

I would be happy if Audi would do what you believe. More EVs available is good, more competition for Tesla is good as well. Right now, with nothing to deliver, they should just be very quite till they are really ready. What they are currently trying to do is holding people off buying what is available today. We don't have to wait for Audi to get a good EV.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I would be happy if Audi would do what you believe. More EVs available is good, more competition for Tesla is good as well. Right now, with nothing to deliver, they should just be very quite till they are really ready. What they are currently trying to do is holding people off buying what is available today. We don't have to wait for Audi to get a good EV.

Sure.

Though at the moment I would not buy any BEV. Too much is changing right now due to Model 3. There is almost a generational shift going on right now, starting with the Model 3 launch and continuing with its ramp-up (and whatever floats over to Model S/X) and international availability and the e-tron quattro and I-Pace releases in 2018...

We are entering a brave new world in 2018, is what I'm thinking. Waiting until next year makes a lot of sense to see what is what.

 

[dennis]

The thing I don't get about the reception Audi gets on TMC is that, out of all the large premium automotive makers, to me Audi seems to be the only one taking both BEVs and autonomous seriously - the two things Tesla has become known for. Autonomous they've always taken seriously and with BEVs they've done a real course correction after the R8 e-tron debacle (which in itself showed some real execution ability still).

The explanation is simple. Audi is like the boy who cried wolf. Too many BEV concepts shown at auto shows starting in 2009 that were stillborn or aborted.

Audi e-tron - Wikipedia

The TMC attitude towards Audi should change once they actually deliver something.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The explanation is simple. Audi is like the boy who cried wolf. Too many BEV concepts shown at auto shows starting in 2009 that were stillborn or aborted.

Audi e-tron - Wikipedia

The TMC attitude towards Audi should change once they actually deliver something.

Sure, people have the same opinions about e.g. Elon's tweets these days... Fair enough.

As for concepts, the whole auto industry has been full of them since forever. ICE concepts too, tons of them that never make it nor are they even intended to make it.

Personally I think Audi was on a bit more serious track than people give them credit for on BEVs, but lost their footing with the R8 e-tron debacle. Audi's management blinked. Luckily (for us who believe in BEVs) the Dieselgate and Tesla showed them the light and they got back on the saddle.

We shall see who is right, but I have presented my opinion and respect other opinions too.

 

[dennis]

The reality is that the major automakers will likely wait for solid state chemistry to overcome its big hurdles before committing heavily to BEVs. In the meantime, they'll make all sorts of FUD to try to rein in Tesla as they play this waiting game. They hope that the chemistry will be viable in the 2020's... and then they don't have to worry about the current generation of BEVs. So they make a few token ones to satisfy governmental regulations and what they perceive as the token small market.

And by pursuing this delaying strategy the other automakers will have enabled Tesla to become a viable, profitable company selling 1M+ cars in 2020 or 2021. The great majority of these will have been conquest sales from owners of other brands. With Tesla's 94% retention rate according to CR these owners will be very difficult for Audi, etc. to win back. Not to mention that allowing Tesla to sell with almost no direct competition for so long will have allowed Tesla to continue moving the goal posts on connected cars, fast charging network, autonomous car sharing, etc.

Not a very smart strategy IMO.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And by pursuing this delaying strategy the other automakers will have enabled Tesla to become a viable, profitable company selling 1M+ cars in 2020 or 2021. The great majority of these will have been conquest sales from owners of other brands. With Tesla's 94% retention rate according to CR these owners will be very difficult for Audi, etc. to win back

This IMO is the problem, you keep using Audi as an example. I think Audi is in a prime position on starting to win back. They are in this relatively early, still. There are tons of people even on TMC who say they will go back to a competitor once something is available. Most of the world is still driving something quite other than a Tesla. The biggest issue is nothing is available - and my point is that Audi seems poised to be the first to bring something serious available (with Jaguar, but that's a gimmick volume and outsourcing wise).

Overall your argument is of course the correct one, but beware of overreach. And we're not even talking of non-premium here, a lot of stuff is going on there as well.

Sure, there will be a market re-shuffle and not all will make it. But IMO it is overreach to paint all old makers with the same brush going forwards.

 

[dennis]

This IMO is the problem, you keep using Audi as an example. I think Audi is in a prime position on starting to win back. They are in this relatively early, still. There are tons of people even on TMC who say they will go back to a competitor once something is available. Most of the world is still driving something quite other than a Tesla. The biggest issue is nothing is available - and my point is that Audi seems poised to be the first to bring something serious available (with Jaguar, but that's a gimmick volume and outsourcing wise).

Overall your argument is of course the correct one, but beware of overreach. And we're not even talking of non-premium here, a lot of stuff is going on there as well.

Sure, there will be a market re-shuffle and not all will make it. But IMO it is overreach to paint all old makers with the same brush going forwards.

I used Audi an an example, because that is what this thread is about. I actually think that BMW is going to be hurt much more by Tesla, as the Model 3 is the new aspirational car for 20-somethings, a role that BMW has held for several decades.

I'm anxious to see products from Audi and Jaguar reach the market, with real specifications and pricing. Then consumers can evaluate them directly against competing products from Tesla. For example, they can look at how they can be used for travel outside a 100 mile radius of their home. I did this with the Bolt about 6 months ago, and found that it was incredibly inconvenient to try to drive it from SF to LA because of the limited availability CCS DCFC. Audi and Jaguar's offerings will not just be competing with the Model 3/S/X, they will be competing with the whole Tesla product, which includes Supercharging, the sales and service experience, word of mouth from friends who own the product, etc. From that perspective, Tesla will be the marketplace gorilla, or Goliath if you prefer that analogy.

 

[thegruf]

@AnxietyRanger - your sig says you own a Model X P100D.

Just what exactly are you expecting from an Audi Q6 in 2018 (if it actually arrives) that your MX doesn't offer?

Let's try shall we, as you are so determined that Audi are leading the charge to be Tesla beaters.
Here's a few to get you started.

More range? - no
Supercharging? - well that's just embarrasing isn't it.
More performance? - than a P100D ... call that a no shall we.
Bigger? - no
Better styling? - personal taste.
(Having seen Audi destroy Da Silva's beautiful A5 coupe design in it's latest incarnation - I'm not holding my breath.)
Better autonomy? - I'm giving that a no
(maybe limited L3 in very select areas/conditions and worse than Tesla in any other circumstance but who know wehre Tesla will have got to in a year's time)
Better handling - unlikely to be distinguishable as Tesla highly capable
Better price? - only if they need to subsidize more heavily to tempt Tesla owners
Better build quality?- possibly but Tesla good these days and improving all the time
More buttons? - ooh yes lots and lots of buttons
More gimmicks? - yawn
Better connectivity - no
Better ridesharing? - oops think Audi will still be cathcing up with that one too (moot point as not sharing mine to anybody anyway )
Better UI? - perhaps they'll beat Tesla with an 18 inch screen for sh*ts n gigs
better dealers? - sorry that's actually quite funny
(and that's if there are any locally trained to support 800V BEVs - the lot round me I wouldn't trust to fix a 2 cell torch).

Nonetheless the more compteition the merrier

All brands will have their die hard supporters. Why the heck anyone would die hard support VAG Audi is beyond me.

your turn

 

[AnxietyRanger]

the sales and service experience

I thought you were listing pros for Tesla, not cons...

Look, I hear what you are saying in general regarding e.g. Supercharging, as well as volumes expected for Model 3. I am not saying Audi will beat Tesla in 2018 or 2019. As I'm saying, I think they will be the first with a serious response and serious large-battery products.

As for Supercharging in particular, just as when Model S started, and just as the case still is in many parts of the world, there is plenty of BEV market to be saturated in the daily commute crowd IMO. For many people most of their charging happens at home or at work. They may have an ICE still in the family too.

This may be hard to appreciate from California, but not all of us can rely on Superchargers as things stand. We still find a large-battery BEV a really enticing proposition as it is.

 

[thegruf]

...with Jaguar, but that's a gimmick volume and outsourcing wise...

and what's with the Jaguar hating?

At least Jaguar announced their first BEV after years of research and are going ahead and doing it with no attempt at false advertising.
If it sells well you can bet they will build as many as they can sell.
Perhaps they're just being realistic about early numbers rather than making false promises

More than can be said of certain other companies ...

 

[thegruf]

@dennis @tescroft - youll have to takeover guys - I've got too much work to do.
flippin' mindless Russians hacked a website I've got to sort

it's been fun

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger - your sig says you own a Model X P100D.

Just what exactly are you expecting from an Audi Q6 in 2018 (if it actually arrives) that your MX doesn't offer?

Yes, I have a Model X P100D. I am not expecting to replace it with an Audi or a Jaguar, but I am looking into replacing another ICE with a BEV in the 2018-2019 range. Currently the options seem to be I-Pace, Model 3, Audi e-tron or nothing - in that order - basically because of size. I think the I-Pace would probably be the best fit for me. Model 3 hurts for lack of hatchback and the Audi seems too big a second car, really, for me. OTOH it is possible I'll just wait.

I am on this thread discussing how I see the wider market, not my personal buying preference.

As for your points, even though I am not looking to replace the Model X at this time, I'll still comment generally:

More range? - no

For me the range that matters is being able to handle daily drivers, with diversions and a couple of nights when I forgot to charge. That's sufficient range for me. Anything beyond that and it's probably ICE time anyway.

Supercharging? - well that's just embarrasing isn't it.

Yeah, but in my neck of the woods the Supercharging network is just embarrasing too.

More performance? - than a P100D ... call that a no shall we.

Seems likely that an Audi or Jaguar would have less 0-60 performance. However, it might for example have a different drivetrain handling-wise, we shall see what pros and cons that might bring. Anyway, not really material to my next purchase, all will be likely far superior in everyday performance to the ICE I'd be replacing.

Bigger? - no

That's actually an upside for my next car purchase. I am not looking for another Model X sized car, let alone bigger. That's actually what makes me look at the I-Pace.

Better styling? - personal taste.

I do prefer the Jaguar exterior to the rest being discussed here, Model X included. Personal taste, but it looks stunning. Interior I expect both Audi and Jaguar doing better than Tesla overall, even though Tesla has some strong points too.

(Having seen Audi destroy Da Silva's beautiful A5 coupe design in it's latest incarnation - I'm not holding my breath.)

Yes, I don't like it much either. I owned one of the early original Audi A5's. Was a very beautiful car. I'm OK with the Audi e-tron quattro styling, though.

Better autonomy? - I'm giving that a no
(maybe limited L3 in very select areas/conditions and worse than Tesla in any other circumstance but who know wehre Tesla will have got to in a year's time)

This we probably don't disagree on much. I think Audi may be further along in autonomy, but Tesla will have more future-proof potential. I.e. Audi's system will be more mature out the gate, but not as upgradeable in the future.

Better handling - unlikely to be distinguishable as Tesla highly capable

We shall see, for example adjustable dampeners might be something the competition does, as is possible more motors or other kinds of torque vectoring.

Better price? - only if they need to subsidize more heavily to tempt Tesla owners

Maybe not better price, but a different price point perhaps. Something between Model 3 and Model X might fit me very well, hence the Jaguar I-Pace high on my personal list. (If I buy anything, maybe I will just wait.)

Better build quality?- possibly but Tesla good these days and improving all the time

Probably better build quality, yes.

More buttons? - ooh yes lots and lots of buttons

Maybe a more balanced mix of buttons and touch. The Audi A8 and Jaguar I-Pace interiors, what has been seen of them, look very promising and certainly IMO more organic than Tesla's. I don't like the super-minimalism of Model 3, for example, does not seem usability oriented to me.

More gimmicks? - yawn

Yes, I would expect Audi and Jaguar to offer more interior comforts and options. Some will appreciate them, I am one of them.

Better connectivity - no

Android Auto and the iPhone equivalent seem like things the competition will have and Tesla maybe not.

Better ridesharing? - oops think Audi will still be cathcing up with that one too (moot point as not sharing mine to anybody anyway )

I don't think anyone has ridesharing during my use of the next car purchase, so completely irrelevant to me. I think the Tesla Network is mostly just hubris at this stage.

Better UI? - perhaps they'll beat Tesla with an 18 inch screen for sh*ts n gigs

I think the three-screened Audi A8 and I-Pace interiors look actually very smart and organic. One screen in the IC, one on top of dash and another below. Makes for a more interesting dash and includes more tactile components. We shall see in time which is better, and if the Audi A8 dash is at all reminiscent of what the e-tron quattro ships with, but I don't think this one is at all clear cut...

better dealers? - sorry that's actually quite funny

Probably not in the U.S., but in Europe it is actually possible these companies have better sales and service than Tesla has. The dealership market is very different and Tesla is just, well, not that well adjusted into the local environment shall we say here.

I miss my Audi dealership when dealing with Tesla - and that's a brutally honest truth.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

and what's with the Jaguar hating?

At least Jaguar announced their first BEV after years of research and are going ahead and doing it with no attempt at false advertising.
If it sells well you can bet they will build as many as they can sell.
Perhaps they're just being realistic about early numbers rather than making false promises

More than can be said of certain other companies ...

I am not Jaguar hating, I thought I made it perfectly clear it is currently leading my personal wishlist for the next BEV I am considering buying.

But the reality is Jaguar I-Pace is a low-volume entrant subcontracted to a third-party for design and manufacturing. It is not a compliance car IMO, but it is a shortcut to BEVs and as such not really the serious, serious effort I'd say is a serious response to Tesla.

Audi's response, no matter their past sins, IMO is now a serious response and I have more faith in them being able to follow-up and ramp-up on that faster than Jaguar.

 

[lux_cars]

Where are the prototypes? Where are the camo covered cars being tested in the desert and the arctic? The Jaguar E-Pace has no release date and no price yet but they are being seen everywhere. VAG is still years behind from a producing a real, long range competitive product.

Audi E-Tron Quattro EV Spotted Testing Again; To Get Driver Assist System - NDTV CarAndBike

 

[thegruf]

... the sales and service experience...

I thought you were listing pros for Tesla, not cons... .

last one while the new site is building!

He was.

As a data point my experience has been outstanding with Tesla and truly awful with Audi littered with lies and deceit.
I actually left the Audi fold because of the terrible service experience.

and can Audi claim anything remotely close to these examples by way of responsiveness to customers?

Tesla is serious about its new mobile service effort – here’s a glimpse at its capacity
Tesla will add automatic “enter/exit” seat positions in future software update after Twitter request
Tesla is now letting customers contact executives with their complaints

thought not.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

last one while the new site is building!

He was.

As a data point my experience has been outstanding with Tesla and truly awful with Audi littered with lies and deceit.
I actually left the Audi fold because of the terrible service experience.

and can Audi claim anything remotely close to these examples by way of responsiveness to customers?

Tesla is serious about its new mobile service effort – here’s a glimpse at its capacity
Tesla will add automatic “enter/exit” seat positions in future software update after Twitter request
Tesla is now letting customers contact executives with their complaints

thought not.

With Germans you don't have to wait months for replacement parts and they probably actually have a service center near you... Also, in general, I've found Tesla terribly bureaucratic to deal with. Just terrible compared to the German dealerships in my experience. Your mileage may vary, just noting mine.

The fact that they need escalation channles for body repairs and executives just tells of the numerous problems they current face that are not sufficiently handled on the bureaucracy riddled low level.

As for Twitter requests, that's just PR. Tesla has gotten that request years ago through many channels and apparently are now choosing to implement it, so time for some Twitter PR.

 

[thegruf]

@AnxietyRanger - been fun - buy you a beer someday. All the best.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@AnxietyRanger - been fun - buy you a beer someday. All the best.

Thank you. We may not see eye to eye on much, but in the end a civil exhange. Appreciate it.

Good luck with the site fixing!

 

[jelloslug]

Audi E-Tron Quattro EV Spotted Testing Again; To Get Driver Assist System - NDTV CarAndBike

With that seen, I could see it as a '19 model.