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Audi Q6 e-tron EV

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This would be less applicable to an e-tron Quattro class vehicle (~similar to a Q7) but these differences are really pronounced when comparing a flagship luxury vehicle like S-Class/A8 vs. Teslas.

I am always surprised at comments like this. Maybe it is a Us perspective. I am living in Switzerland (but calculation is the same for my father that purchase a Model S in France), when you go for a leasing of a Model S, considering:
  • high residual garanteed value,
  • 0,25% leasing rate,
  • gain in term of diesel versus electricity (diesel is ~1,2€/l in France, 1,5-1,6 CHF/l in Switzerland and the kW around 0,12€)
  • tax incentives (6000€ in France and no yearly road taxes in Switzerland)
basically a Model S 75 is costing (every month) the same as a Renaul Espace 1,6 diesel in the middle range.
Every Audi A6 or Q5 are much more expensive. Only the VW Passat break with the base 2.0l diesel with the 1st finition level is similar in price.

So people are comparing to Audi A8 or S class but those cost like 3 or 4 times more than a Tesla so I do not know how you can compare them beside catalogue starting price which, honestly, makes no sense.
 
@SuisseDriver Tesla offers their own (controversial) calculation on the gas savings during the ownership of the car. It is a few thousand euros/dollars, not tens of thousands, so your calculations must come from a lease difference with incentives - and I wonder if you are skipping the money down part.

Anyway, I can guarantee you, no way is the actual cost of a Model S anywhere near a Renaul Espace 1,6 diesel, except perhaps in some unusual subsidized (or ICE taxed) circumstances. In reality Model S, even at its cheapest with average incentives factored in, is more expensive than a base Audi A6, priced somewhere between that and an Audi A8 overall.

If you can get a good deal, good for you, go for it. But a realistic portrayal a Renaul Espace 1,6 diesel is not for most of us.
 
@SuisseDriver Tesla offers their own (controversial) calculation on the gas savings during the ownership of the car. It is a few thousand euros/dollars, not tens of thousands, so your calculations must come from a lease difference with incentives - and I wonder if you are skipping the money down part.

Anyway, I can guarantee you, no way is the actual cost of a Model S anywhere near a Renaul Espace 1,6 diesel, except perhaps in some unusual subsidized (or ICE taxed) circumstances. In reality Model S, even at its cheapest with average incentives factored in, is more expensive than a base Audi A6, priced somewhere between that and an Audi A8 overall.

If you can get a good deal, good for you, go for it. But a realistic portrayal a Renaul Espace 1,6 diesel is not for most of us.

Again, I am NOT taking the skewed Tesla calculation but my own, REAL, FACTUAL cases. For info, I ran a Model S for 110km so I have also the real number to compare with. So let me give you my calculation again for France:

  • Espace 1,6l DCI : 8l / 100km (this is the average with a lot of city, start and stop, of my friend who has exactly this one) * 1,2€ / liter * 2500km / month (I am doing 30 000km per year so calculation with 28 000km) = 240€ month
  • Tesla : 0.12€t / kW * 80% (20% Supercharger) * 225W/km * 2500km = 54€
So difference = + 185€/month

Renault website Leasing calculator : Espace 1,6 DCI Zen with 4000€ first payment, on 61 months (not 60) : Leasing = 616€. You need to add the 185€ so it costs every month 801€

Tesla french website : Tesla S75 with 4000 payment (because Tesla gets the 6000€ of French bonus for electrical vehicule so they get in reality 10000€) : 719€ / month. (it stops at 20 000km that cost 671€ but I have the Tesla calculator where you can input any values and for 25 000km like the Espace, it is 719€ / month)

So indeed, the Tesla is DEFINITELY cheaper than an Espace.

Feel free to counteract the website values with your own sources but those are the info I have directly from their website that I had confirmed by Tesla and Renault respectively as I was interested to purchase a car (I ended up purchasing last week a S75D because of this).

And FOR SURE, a S75D is much MUCH cheaper than an Audi A6 which happens to be my current car (Audi A6 Avant 3.0 TDI DSG from 2013).
What I do not count on top of that is:
  • maintenance : for the Audi, in a 3rd party garage, the 4 breaking pads are 677€, the 60000 and 120 000km maintenance (every 2 years) cost me close to 1000€ and the 30000 and 90000km maintenance 550€.
  • unexpected issue : my first Audi A4 TFSI had an offset of the chain distribution in a cold morning start (!!!) : costed me 3500€. My current Audi A6 has a water pump that is leaking. The budget from Audi for that is >3000€ because the car is 4 years old
On the Tesla, the battery / engine / transmission are garanteed 8 years (unlimited distance).

So I assure you that on the European continent, a Tesla is NOT anywhere close to costing like an Audi A6 or Q5. I am not even speaking of the real ICE model you should compared them with (Audi A8, GLE A63 AMG, Jaguar XJ 5.0, Serie 7...).
 
I am always surprised at comments like this. Maybe it is a Us perspective. I am living in Switzerland (but calculation is the same for my father that purchase a Model S in France), when you go for a leasing of a Model S, considering:
  • high residual garanteed value,
  • 0,25% leasing rate,
  • gain in term of diesel versus electricity (diesel is ~1,2€/l in France, 1,5-1,6 CHF/l in Switzerland and the kW around 0,12€)
  • tax incentives (6000€ in France and no yearly road taxes in Switzerland)
basically a Model S 75 is costing (every month) the same as a Renaul Espace 1,6 diesel in the middle range.
Every Audi A6 or Q5 are much more expensive. Only the VW Passat break with the base 2.0l diesel with the 1st finition level is similar in price.

So people are comparing to Audi A8 or S class but those cost like 3 or 4 times more than a Tesla so I do not know how you can compare them beside catalogue starting price which, honestly, makes no sense.

You have to look at cash prices without incentives, ICE tax penalties, periodic leasing offers etc because these are neither universal nor will they last forever. US federal tax credits for instance will run out soon for Tesla.

Audi and Tesla base pricing comparison:
A6 - $47,600
A8 - $82,500

Model S - $69,500
Model X - $79,500

And, don't forget you almost always get a significant discount off sticker price/MSRP for most automakers except Tesla.

Tesla and industry classification:
Tesla regularly claims the Model S is a "full-size luxury sedan" and that's how it is classified by industry observers/organizations. For instance, Model S outselling S-Class is always touted by media/Tesla. I personally think it's priced only slightly lower than full-size luxury sedans but is no way near as large or spacious, nor does it have the same amenities.

Maintenance cost comparison:
Audi pre-paid maintaince for up to 45k miles:
A6 - $869
A8 - $1,179

Tesla pre-paid maintaince plan for up to 50k miles:
Model S - $2,325 - $2,400
Model X - $2,750

Everything else should be covered under warranty for both so not a differentiator.

Fuel savings:
You will save money on gas but not by enough to offset the $21,900 initial price premium of a Model S over Audi A6 (see fueleconomy.gov if you want to run some numbers). Also, don't forget the time value of money/opportunity cost of capital.

Feature/luxury/comfort comparison with mid-size luxury vehicles:
But even if Model S was priced similar to mid-sized luxury vehicles, these still offer a lot more features, luxury and comfort than Model S. For instance, the following are available on Mercedes E-Class (starting price $52,950) but not on Model S:

1. More comfortable seats with many more adjustments, e.g. extendable thigh support, 6-way adjustable headrests with option for soft cushioned/pillow-y headrest. Coming from a vehicle with throne like seats which adjust every which way, I found Tesla seats to be really lacking in comfort. Not to even mention the seriously inadequate rear seats!
2. Heated armrests and door-panels with rapid heating feature that heats up nearly instantaneously (And yes, you can remote start it via app too if you want).
3. Very high quality materials and fit/finish (different from design/minimalism): E-Class options include very high quality nappa leather and ultra-high quality designo leather.
2016-E-CLASS-SDN-DSR-D.jpg


4. Premium materials (again, different from design/minimalism) throughout: For instance, stitched leather on door panels (I wished though Mercedes had stitched leather covered steering wheel too like other mid-size luxury cars offer):
maxresdefault.jpg


5. 64 color ambient interior lighting that actually is ambient lighting that you can see and isn't just a few little bulbs in the footwells and door side (ignore tacky color choice below, but you get the point):
2017-Mercedes-Benz-E-Class-TechDay-Design-Insight-interior-illuminating-light.jpg


6. Soft close doors
7. Hands-free trunk access
8. Much more noise insulation and sound deadening standard resulting in lower wind/road noise at high speeds with the option of getting even more insulation/sound deadening as an option. For someone such as myself who drives a lot for extended periods, wind/road noise creates a lot of fatigue and discomfort.
9. Fully adaptive headlights with constant glare-free high beams that you can leave on all the time without blinding other drivers (Available in Europe now but I am told US approval for these will likely come in 2018). My dad, for instance, who isn't even that old, really finds it difficult to see at night driving on unlit roads without high-beams. Regular highbeams are pretty useless because you always get oncoming and ahead traffic, even if a few vehicles every couple of seconds/minutes so you can't leave them on. See video below for Audi's similar Matrix LED:

10. Cabin fragrance diffuser (A little gimmicky if you don't like to infuse your car with fragrances but much better than inexpensive vent clip options).
11. Heads up display
12. Surround view camera
13. Front and rear cross-traffic alert and braking
14. Active seat side bolsters that push you inwards in the case the vehicle expects a side collision
15. Pre-safe sound which emits a loud noise in cabin if a collision is expected to reduce ear drum damage from the noise of the actual collision.
16. Rain-sensing wipers that actually work unlike Teslas (which is what I heard/read a while ago, but perhaps this has been fixed).
17. Crosswind assist which helps keep car stable in strong cross-winds and against passing trailers. Again, nothing earth-shattering but I once drove in stormy weather where my vehicle was being shoved to the side so much I was worried I would hit the guardrail.
18. Power rear and side wide sunshades.
19. Ventilated seats (though I was Mercedes offered air-conditioned seats).
20. Active side bolsters that grip you in corners.
21. Messaging seats (though I personally don't care for this).

Now imagine the difference if you were to compare Model S to an S-Class and new A8. Not to mention little things like lighted vanity mirrors, door pockets, coat hooks, usable cupholders etc that you get in a $20,000 car.

Not everybody will value all of the above but you can't argue that no one will value any of these. IMO the point in highlightin such differences is not to ridicule Tesla but to convey to the company and its supporters that Teslas are not all great, perfect, best, safest cars in the world and to encourage significant improvement in areas where the products are lacking. And as a Tesla supporter and well-wisher, I hope they address all these lacking areas and do even better. I'll be rooting for them!
 
You have to look at cash prices without incentives, ICE tax penalties, periodic leasing offers etc because these are neither universal nor will they last forever. US federal tax credits for instance will run out soon for Tesla.
I will answer more in details later but I just wanted to tell you that despite all you are saying regarding catalog prices, the reality is what it is.
In France you have 6000€ rebate on electrical cars. In Switzerland you are exempt from yearly road taxes (788 CHF / year). In most countries in Europe, you have incentive for electrical / clean cars.

I am not saying that a Tesla is, EVERYWHERE in the world, a very cheap car. But in France (my father) or in Switzerland (for me), the Tesla is much MUUUUUUUUUUCH cheaper than an A8 or serie 7.
Again, the calculation is dead simple as you just need to go on the car manufacturer website and make your calculation.

In my case, S75D with metal peint, leather, AP2 and pack premium, I have the same monthly payment as a ~38-39 000 CHF cars (so ~35k€) from Renault or Volkswagen group (because they have a leasing rate around 5,5% all included).
So yes, if Renault reduce the price of the Espace 1,6 DCI from 44 000 CHF to 38000 CHF, it would cost me the same.

But unfortunately, the base diesel 4 wheel drive Audi Q5 with minimum option like leather and the driving assistance package costs close to 75 000 CHF and there is no way that Audi would make a 36 000 CHF rebate.

So yeah, sure, cars like Audi A8 that have monthly costs 3 times higher than a Tesla have great interiors but...

Last point, I think repair cost for the Tesla are a killer (in the literal sense) but maintenance is not required for the garantee and there is NO WAY I will pay for the maintenance package. Indeed, even Tesla advise me against and said it was better to come once every year or 2 year for a 500 CHF maintenance check.
 
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Now imagine the difference if you were to compare Model S to an S-Class and new A8. Not to mention little things like lighted vanity mirrors, door pockets, coat hooks, usable cupholders etc that you get in a $20,000 car.

Not everybody will value all of the above but you can't argue that no one will value any of these. IMO the point in highlightin such differences is not to ridicule Tesla but to convey to the company and its supporters that Teslas are not all great, perfect, best, safest cars in the world and to encourage significant improvement in areas where the products are lacking. And as a Tesla supporter and well-wisher, I hope they address all these lacking areas and do even better. I'll be rooting for them!

I give you that : German cars CAN had terrific interiors. The issue is that to get what you see and describe, you need to double the price of a car. I was looking to replace my A6 so I started to configure a new A6 like the one I have, which really is nothing fancy the pictures you showed and just with modern drive / parking / safety assistance: the monthly costs raised from 730 CHF (with my 20k down payment) to more than double!!!!
So forget what you have to pay get top of the line A8 interior.

Also, you were mentioning rear seats. For info, this is THE reason that pushed me toward Tesla. I have 3 kids and the central rear armrest is a deal breaker for my kids in the A6, Q5, BMW 5 or 7, Jaguar and others. Tesla is one the only sedan offering large cargo space, 3 rear seats, in a performing sedan.
Just to tell you that what is a disadvantage for some can be an advantage for others. But yeah, once Audi make an A6 electric with 5 seats, i will definitely be interested ... but may not be able to buy it at those current stratospheric prices.

Last note: It is still puzzling to realize that for the price of an Espace 1.6 diesel, i will have the performance of a Panamera 4S, Audi S6, BMW M550, Jaguar XJ 5.0, Mercedes GLE 63 AMG... or other crazy cars costing (monthly) 4 times more so yes, willing to give up the massage seats ... that you have in the Espace as well (!) and have zero interest for me.
 
I will answer more in details later but I just wanted to tell you that despite all you are saying regarding catalog prices, the reality is what it is.
In France you have 6000€ rebate on electrical cars. In Switzerland you are exempt from yearly road taxes (788 CHF / year). In most countries in Europe, you have incentive for electrical / clean cars.

I am not saying that a Tesla is, EVERYWHERE in the world, a very cheap car. But in France (my father) or in Switzerland (for me), the Tesla is much MUUUUUUUUUUCH cheaper than an A8 or serie 7.
Again, the calculation is dead simple as you just need to go on the car manufacturer website and make your calculation.

In my case, S75D with metal peint, leather, AP2 and pack premium, I have the same monthly payment as a ~38-39 000 CHF cars (so ~35k€) from Renault or Volkswagen group (because they have a leasing rate around 5,5% all included).
So yes, if Renault reduce the price of the Espace 1,6 DCI from 44 000 CHF to 38000 CHF, it would cost me the same.

But unfortunately, the base diesel 4 wheel drive Audi Q5 with minimum option like leather and the driving assistance package costs close to 75 000 CHF and there is no way that Audi would make a 36 000 CHF rebate.

So yeah, sure, cars like Audi A8 that have monthly costs 3 times higher than a Tesla have great interiors but...

Last point, I think repair cost for the Tesla are a killer (in the literal sense) but maintenance is not required for the garantee and there is NO WAY I will pay for the maintenance package. Indeed, even Tesla advise me against and said it was better to come once every year or 2 year for a 500 CHF maintenance check.
 
I am not saying that a Tesla is, EVERYWHERE in the world, a very cheap car. But in France (my father) or in Switzerland (for me), the Tesla is much MUUUUUUUUUUCH cheaper than an A8 or serie 7.
Again, the calculation is dead simple as you just need to go on the car manufacturer website and make your calculation.

I think the solution if I want to be able to afford a Model S therefor is to emigrate to Switzerland. ;)

Over here in Germany, a Model S, even the naked base model, is far more expensive than even a well equipped A6, and a Renault Espace 1.6? Come on, that would be ridiculous.

Just two weeks ago I got an offer from Tesla for a 75D with no options at all, other than metallic paint. Even with their 0.25% leasing rate, it came to about 570 Euro a month.
I just now configurated an Espace Initiale Paris ENERGY dCi 160 EDC, the most expensive edition, and added additional extras (like HUD, rear seat DVD entertainment, etc.) to the already ample configuration, and adjusted the finanzing conditions to match those that Tesla gave me for the S 75D. It came to 373.14 Euro a month (but included 20K km per year instead of 10K with the Tesla).

So, much cheaper, like I expected.
Strange situation in France or Switzerland, where a 90K car costs less than a 52K car apparently.
 
I think the solution if I want to be able to afford a Model S therefor is to emigrate to Switzerland.

Over here in Germany, a Model S, even the naked base model, is far more expensive than even a well equipped A6, and a Renault Espace 1.6? Come on, that would be ridiculous.

Just two weeks ago I got an offer from Tesla for a 75D with no options at all, other than metallic paint. Even with their 0.25% leasing rate, it came to about 570 Euro a month.
I just now configurated an Espace Initiale Paris ENERGY dCi 160 EDC, the most expensive edition, and added additional extras (like HUD, rear seat DVD entertainment, etc.) to the already ample configuration, and adjusted the finanzing conditions to match those that Tesla gave me for the S 75D. It came to 373.14 Euro a month (but included 20K km per year instead of 10K with the Tesla).

So, much cheaper, like I expected.
Strange situation in France or Switzerland, where a 90K car costs less than a 52K car apparently.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I am not speaking of purchasing price which, appart from the rare people that can buy a 100k€ car cash, is a useless info.
What is important for a buyer is how much a car cost to you.

For this :
  • the leasing / financing rate : 0,25% for Tesla, 5,54% bei Audi
  • the guaranteed residual value : 27000€ for a S75D after 5 years, ~15000€ for an Audi A6 normally equipped
  • the maintenance cost : 8 years unlimited guaranty for motor / gearbox / battery and NO mandatory maintenance except for oil change for the gearbox after 4 years versus Audi 2-3 years warranty and maintenance between 500€ (each 30000km) and 800€ (each 60000km), no braking pad thanks to regenerative breaking for the Tesla versus 680€ for the Audi...
  • the gain of diesel versus electricity : in France, this is roughly 2500€ per year of gain for someone driving 30 000km/year and a 7,5-8l diesel engine average consumption (this is very likely similar in Germany)
  • the ecological bonuses that you have in most countries in Europe (6000€ in France)
all of this contribute to make the monthly cost of a Tesla SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than an A6 or comparable car.
Indeed, again, the calculation above, both in France (my father has purchased a Tesla) and in Switzerland (where I did purchase a Tesla to replace my Audi A6) are showing monthly cost similar to an Espace 1,6 DCI (without even factoring the maintenance gain).

So taking your comparison, as you say, the price difference is 200€/month.
So just the saving on diesel versus electricity alone, for someone driving 30000km/year (my case) is adding 200€ on the Espace so making basically the monthly cost exactly the same.

On top of proving yourself my point, just with the consumption alone, the other points is putting the Tesla ahead:
  • the residual value of such Espace after 5 years is around 8-9k€ from what I remember. And this basically what you will get from the Espace in best case. For the Tesla, you can purchased it back at 27k€ except that you cannot get a 5 years old Tesla below 50k€ these days so you can even make a added value like 5-10 (20?) k€.
  • Maintenance is much lower. And if you have one thing unexpected like chain distribution offset (happened on my Audi A4) or water pump to change (happened on my Audi A6)... you have to pay 4k€ of more
  • when you resale your car, or decide to keep it, you still have 3 years warranty for the costly elements

Your experience and findings are mirroring exactly mine and indeed, a Tesla is mind blowingly cheap when you consider the Total Cost of Ownership.
 
Your experience and findings are mirroring exactly mine and indeed, a Tesla is mind blowingly cheap when you consider the Total Cost of Ownership.

Again, if you can get a good deal. The downpayment is one clincher that kills it without a good deal. But sure, nobody is denying there are good deals (e.g. environmental incentives) in some countries.

The cost of charging, needed insurance, taxes etc. are highly dependent on the region. Also, your maintenance costs are IMO a bit naive - Tesla is a very expensive vehicle to maintain, whenever it needs maintenance, for a multitude of reasons that quickly become apparent.

But I do believe you that in your region, in your circumstances (both you and your father), for the duration you buys cars, the math does work for you. I think your calculations are useful food for thought and checking for anyone.

For example, I buy much more high-end and am not willing to tie myself into a specific period of ownership. The math changes quite dramatically.
 
So people are comparing to Audi A8 or S class but those cost like 3 or 4 times more than a Tesla so I do not know how you can compare them beside catalogue starting price which, honestly, makes no sense.

Your problem is that you think the cars are apples and apples. They are not. A 75D Model S or X is not comparable to an Audi A8 or S Class, a P100D on the other hand inches closer, but since no Model S/X can not match the amenities of Audi A8/S Class, it is more comparable to an Audi A6/A7 type of car anyways... and so on it goes. Nothing is 1:1 comparable.

One can always find an area where product differences make for unfavorable comparisons. For example many people use acceleration on TMC as the comparison, which is ludicrous since BEV and ICE characteristics are different and people choose on many different characteristics, not just acceleration. OTOH, if I use seat massage or range on a single fill-up as the comparison, then the equation changes again, and so forth...

Reality is, car models can not be compared 1:1. They are overlapping competing models in some ways, but then again not in others. People compare high-end Germans and Teslas because a lot of people are in the market for roughly those types of cars. Beyond that, the comparisons get really inaccurate and fast.

And neither can markets and situations be compared 1:1. Do the math for your specific requirements, local conditions and try to get a good deal, that's the best advice.
 
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Again, if you can get a good deal. The downpayment is one clincher that kills it without a good deal. But sure, nobody is denying there are good deals (e.g. environmental incentives) in some countries.
The cost of charging, needed insurance, taxes etc. are highly dependent on the region. Also, your maintenance costs are IMO a bit naive - Tesla is a very expensive vehicle to maintain, whenever it needs maintenance, for a multitude of reasons that quickly become apparent.

I disagree - a Tesla S may be expensive to repair after crashes due to its aluminium frame, but it is not expensive to maintain. All you've to do is changing tires. There is no other car out there with infinite km warranty on battery and drive train. That's just awesome. There is also a full 4 year warranty on the rest, which is a very good offer as well in comparison. Here is an example of a professional car rental company A Tesla Model S hits 300,000 miles in just 2 years – saving an estimated $60,000 on fuel and maintenance. Almost 500'000 km in a model S.

In regards to TCO, a Tesla S beats a lot of mainstream cars already. I did the comparison calculation to a new heavily discounted Mazda 6 series and I came to about the same TCO for a Model X 75 over 10 years when considering fuel savings and reduced maintainance needs, without incentives. If you drive a lot, EVs win by a large margin.

Be honest and check ICE repair lists of your past cars. There is a lot of stuff that is broken over time. Brakes, lambda probes, V-belts, exhaust pipes, head gaskets, turbo hose, cooler, etc. You've to factor that in comparing Teslas with premium ICEs. ICEs have lost the battle. Some have noticed that. Others haven't yet.
 
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