Eye opening. Had no idea MobilEye was #1, pushing out Waymo.Latest list
Tesla's not even in the top 10 of self-driving firms, according to experts who ranked all of the leading companies working on automation
Tesla was nowhere to be found in this year's list of the top 10 of leading automated driving firms ranked by research firm Guidehouse Insights.www.businessinsider.com
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Autonomous Car Progress
- Thread starter stopcrazypp
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Yes that is true. Uber didn't meet that criteria though. They had no steering nag on the car, the UI was like a L3 car (there is a light bar that told you to take over if necessary).
No, I'm saying the DMV does not rely solely on the statement of the company on the SAE level of the vehicle as the sole determination of the level. They get details on how the car actually operates to determine that. DMV did determine FSD Beta back in 2020 was a L2 system, based on examining the details. NHTSA apparently made the same determination.
The back and forth argument is that others are arguing Elon says FSD will eventually support robotaxies, and that is the design intent, so it qualifies as a L4 vehicle already (just one under test), and that Tesla is only calling it L2 to avoid the testing permit requirements and the legal problems.
Others are saying FSD Beta software as it is currently, is L2 and even if an L3+ software may come the future, that doesn't change that.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Ford just announced that they have formed a subsidiary called Latitude AI to develop "eyes off" autonomous driving for consumer cars:
Here is the full press release: https://media.ford.com/content/ford...e-ai-to-develop-future-automated-driving.html
First, I find it odd that they would shut down ArgoAI just to create a new company to basically do the same thing, develop autonomous driving. If Ford wanted to focus more on L4 for consumer cars, why not just tell Argo to shift their focus especially since Argo already had advanced L4? This seems like a typical dumb legacy automaker move: shut down the company (Argo) that you had invested billions in and that could have given you L4 highway like you want, to likely put billions to start a new company to recreate the same thing.
Second, from the press release, they want to focus on highway driving and stop and go traffic. So it seems like latitude AI will likely focus on L4 highway and L4 "traffic jam".
Here is the full press release: https://media.ford.com/content/ford...e-ai-to-develop-future-automated-driving.html
First, I find it odd that they would shut down ArgoAI just to create a new company to basically do the same thing, develop autonomous driving. If Ford wanted to focus more on L4 for consumer cars, why not just tell Argo to shift their focus especially since Argo already had advanced L4? This seems like a typical dumb legacy automaker move: shut down the company (Argo) that you had invested billions in and that could have given you L4 highway like you want, to likely put billions to start a new company to recreate the same thing.
Second, from the press release, they want to focus on highway driving and stop and go traffic. So it seems like latitude AI will likely focus on L4 highway and L4 "traffic jam".
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If you're saying "They're not going to bother learning what is needed to get beyond L2 legally until they get L2 to whatever standard of working well they have selected for L2" I've no argument or objection whatsoever to that.
But it kind of kills the other guys argument that their "design intent" of fsdb is L5 robotaxis if it's actually that their design intent for fsdb is "really good L2" and then we'll develop something further afterward.
Though perhaps worth noting that last thing is literally what Tesla told us their intent was with fsdb and some future product
Guidehouse has put out some pretty questionable leaderboards in the past however, for example this gem that had Nikola ranking super high in 2020:
Guidehouse Insights names Rivian, NIO, and Nikola the leading EV “upstarts”
A new Leaderboard Report from Guidehouse Insights evaluates the strategy and execution of 21 electric vehicle (EV) upstarts, with Rivian, NIO, and Nikola ranked as the leading market players. The Guidehouse Insights Leaderboard Grid Interest in and adoption of battery electric vehicles (BEVs)...
www.greencarcongress.com
powertoold
Active Member
The difference between L2 and L5 can be a couple of lines of code for Tesla.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Both are.
Not especially related though since the first one was in regards to direct quotes from the person in question who admitted to exactly what I said about them. In court. Under oath.
Classic large company mentality, We can always do it better than anyone else.
It's up there with IBM acquiring a lot of companies and killing them.
Some VP, who absolutely knows anything, decides that their team, who the VP has no idea what they do, has promised the team will deliver it. But give that VP 6 months to complete divorce of the project and find something else so they don't get the blame!!
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It really can't.
You might benefit from reading about some of the specific things Tesla told the CA DMV that fsdb was lacking- and would still lack in the final version of it that prevents it from being more than L2.
it's a lot more than "a couple lines of code"
Right they could just geofence the car to Elon's commute, which has to be L5 capable at this point. Maybe that will finally get them into the coveted "Guidehouse Insights" rankings. Or even Gartner's magical quadrants?
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Well, as I said before, that is questionable. They rank companies based on several metrics, including the ability to scale. I think they give Mobileye extra points for being able to deploy their system at scale (something Waymo can't do as easily). And they give Mobileye lots of points simply for having a viable path to both AV consumer cars and robotaxis, something no other company can do (Waymo can't do AV consumer cars as easily). So while Waymo is way ahead of Mobileye on the autonomous driving part, they lag behind Mobileye on scaling and consumer cars. So I think Guide House "averages" things out and basically puts them equal.
powertoold
Active Member
This is what I mean by people don't understand the levels. I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of this because the levels just plain suck. There are plenty of incompetent people out there. Discussing the levels is a case of the blind leading the blind leading the blind.
If Mobileye is that far ahead and available for consumer cars, why the heck is Ford creating their own? Why not just partner with Mobileye and plug in the tech?
Which is why it’s interesting in the investor thread, many wonder why TSLA went down vs up after investor day. Sure lots of great things were promised but Wall Street knows the “when” is always the wildcard with Tesla.
@diplomat33 can tell you more than I can, but my understanding is that they have kits that can be installed in older cars to give them essentially L2 with some basic Autopilot type functions. For L3+, they have solutions that they work with the mfg during the design phase to install their sensor suite and computer systems, and link in the control software to the car's MCU.
diplomat33
Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Well, the Guide House ranking is just their analysis of who they think is a leader, contender, challenger and follower based on certain criteria. They did not say Mobileye is far ahead. They just ranked Mobileye as a leader, with Waymo and Cruise.
I would argue that objectively ranking these companies is hard because some are doing consumer cars, some are doing robotaxis. So it is not an apples to apples comparison. Mobileye does not have driverless but they have L2 hands-free on 70,000+ cars in China and business deals with 9 brands to scale it to 1.2M vehicles by 2026. Mobileye is also actively testing their vision-only stack, their radar-lidar stack, and robotaxis with the full stack in multiple cities around the world. Mobileye also has a deal with a major premium brand to start production of L4 highway in 2026. Does that mean they are leader? Well, I guess it depends how you measure being ahead.
Personally, I think Ford should go with Mobileye. They could deploy Mobileye SuperVision for hands free driving and work with Mobileye to design a L4 consumer car for 2026. But Ford's recent announcement of founding Latitude AI to do L4 highway for them means a partnership with Mobileye is extremely unlikely at this point.
If you mean, can you buy a Mobileye kit and turn any old car into a self-driving car? No. Mobileye gives the hardware and software to the carmaker who then installs it on their vehicles that they sell. But the carmaker can take the Mobileye hardware and software and make their vehicle a self-driving car.
Right now, there are 70,000+ cars in China that have the Mobileye hardware and software for hands free L2. But Mobileye has deals with European and US carmakers to deploy their hardware and software on vehicles starting in 2024.
I don't think there are any Mobileye kits to turn a car into basic L2. You might be thinking of Comma.ai which has a L2 kit.
Mobileye works with carmakers to install SuperVision which is Mobileye's FSD stack with vision-only, rated as L2. Mobileye will also work with carmakers to install Chauffeur which is the same FSD stack but with cameras, radar and lidar and extra compute, rated as L4.
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