AutoPilot Buddy now officially banned in USA!

[TaoJones]

You have been spouting this nonsense for a long time now. You need to stop. On any road that has lane markers and if you are driving at the speed limit or just marginally over, AP2 works just great. In fact it maintains center by such precision even on sweeping curves I am amazed. The trick is to not over speed and be close to the speed limit.

I’ll happily continue to live in reality while you continue to embrace multiple conditionals to support your delusional opinion that AP2 “works just great”. Your amazement is your own business.

I’ll include a test at the end. But first, this:

As for your conditional of staying near the speed limit, the AS default, as you well know, is 5mph over the speed limit, provided that the speed limit used by AP2’s AS is not erroneously entered in the database upon which it relies (since silent E-AP2 doesn’t yet use one of its 4-8 available cameras to read or react to speed limit signs as does... AP1 since late 2014/early 2015).

Surely, 5mph over the speed limit as a default would be sufficient to prove your case, except it does not. With regularity, *especially* around curves, AP2 will meander across lane markers with both regularity and enthusiasm. It also *still* gets uncomfortably close to concrete barriers while in the HOV lanes.

Again, I’ll stick with actual reality, in which AP2 remains neither at parity with AP1 nor ready for prime time.

AP2 also regrettably remains a competitive *liability* in its present state, relative to the oncoming hordes (read that, competition) until (hopefully) v9.1 this Fall/Winter gives us *maybe* some relief/further edge via the utilization of more cameras, better code, and better HD mapping. I’d like to think Tesla’s lead in AP remains as insurmountable as its lead in global infrastructure, but... it’s about to get crowded.

Here’s the test: *At this time*, would you feel comfortable letting a less-experienced family member use AP2 in anything other than the extremely vanilla conditions partially alluded to by your multiple conditionals?

It’s not a trick question.

 

[DarkMatter]

Yep. It has been working great for a while now. The known foibles are pretty easy to explain to people. It seems to be getting better with each release.

 

[ChicagolandMX]

I've heard Sunkist will be getting their letter later this week.

 

[Tiger]

They should just re-brand it as Not-a-Tesla-autopilot-buddy

 

[Garlan Garner]

It's nowhere near conclusive they were actually sleeping. How many other "sleeping driver" videos are there? Maybe one other one?

Oh I see...…you are going to deny it all.

No one has gone to sleep at the wheel of a Tesla on autopilot. You know this for sure?

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Hell, it`s about damn time this happened!
If idiots are bent on being a danger to themselves and everyone around them then there`s no stopping it, but we don`t have to accept when someone makes a product out of this.

 

[HankLloydRight]

This ban is going to create the opposite effect NHTSA desired. Not every Tesla owner reads Tesla forums. I think 80% or more Tesla owners did not know about AutoPilot Buddy or the Orange or wrist/ankle weight straps. Now with this ban all over the mainstream media, everyone and their mother knows about it and how it works. Combine this with the timing of the increase nagging, do you think there will more or less people using some kind of weight on the steering wheel?

Not for very long. It would be trivial for Tesla to add a few lines of code to detect a static weight on the steering wheel and subtract that out from the applied torque to conclude there is no human involvement and continue the nags. I think one of the Tesla crackers said the code is already in there, just not enabled.

So naturally someone will soon build a dynamic weight that jiggles the wheel an appropriate amount at random intervals. Of course, for TRACK USE ONLY.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Oh I see...…you are going to deny it all.

No one has gone to sleep at the wheel of a Tesla on autopilot. You know this for sure?

No, I'm not going to deny it all... but a sample size of two very questionable videos does not prove a point that people are going to use an APB device in order to go to sleep. AP or not, people do fall asleep at the wheel.

You originally posted:

What do you think this guy was using?

And I told you... that video is clearly a fake video. And he wasn't using any device to stop the nags, since that video was shot long before Nag-gate.

 

[Snowstorm]

Not for very long. It would be trivial for Tesla to add a few lines of code to detect a static weight on the steering wheel and subtract that out from the applied torque to conclude there is no human involvement and continue the nags. I think one of the Tesla crackers said the code is already in there, just not enabled.

So naturally someone will soon build a dynamic weight that jiggles the wheel an appropriate amount at random intervals. Of course, for TRACK USE ONLY.

I will be very upset if Tesla spends engineering resources to detect AP Buddy like devices instead of actually making AP work better (and relaxing nag) so no one will want to use AP Buddies to defeat a system that is not functioning as marketed/expected.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Just in case people don't realize, AP Buddy was created long before the latest firmware update that reduced the nags to 20 seconds or so. AP Buddy was created to restore the original AP1 function when there were essentially no nags.

With the nags getting really frequent now, the ability to detect a nag-defeat device is even more important now than it was previously, and I hope Tesla does (or has) spent the time to detect and defeat the nag-defeating devices, which will lead to safer cars.

It's no different than the police using radar detector detectors in areas where radar detectors are illegal.

 

[NewTMSMan]

There is absolutely no data I can find that says having your hands on the wheel is safer than not having your hands on the wheel if in both cases you are paying attention to the driving conditions around you. If it were true and demonstrable than the Cadillac system would require hands on the wheel as well to improve safety. It's all nonsense based on Tesla trying to cover their a** for people who do not pay attention, that is what is required to provide a safe experience with EAP, not having your hands on the wheel and nagging you if it does not feel enough torque.

All the "safety experts" who claim a device like this actually is a safety issue please provide one study showing that to be true. The fact that the NHTSA has banned the device is simply because you are not allowed to circumvent safety systems in the car, not because they have done any study to show that this device creates a less safe condition. Here is a link to the exact language used highlighting my point:

CONSUMER ADVISORY: NHTSA Deems ‘Autopilot Buddy’ Product Unsafe

 

[mongo]

There is absolutely no data I can find that says having your hands on the wheel is safer than not having your hands on the wheel if in both cases you are paying attention to the driving conditions around you.

Does it take time to move your hands to the wheel if they are not there initially?
Does the vehicle move in that time?
Does having less distance/ tme to react increase the risk/ severity of an accident?

 

[NewTMSMan]

Does it take time to move your hands to the wheel if they are not there initially?
Does the vehicle move in that time?
Does having less distance/ tme to react increase the risk/ severity of an accident?

Yeah that's definitive data.... Better call Cadillac and let them know their Super Cruise is unsafe....

BTW:

Is it unsafe to drive the car?
Is it unsafe to drive on roads where there are other drivers?
Is it unsafe to not be wrapped in bubble wrap and hide in your basement?

Better just park your car in the garage, never drive it and hide in the basement, any other behavior not only risks your safety, but also creates a hazard for the rest of us.

 

[mongo]

Yeah that's definitive data.... Better call Cadillac and let them know their Super Cruise is unsafe....

BTW:

Is it unsafe to drive the car?
Is it unsafe to drive on roads where there are other drivers?
Is it unsafe to not be wrapped in bubble wrap and hide in your basement?

Better just park your car in the garage, never drive it and hide in the basement, any other behavior not only risks your safety, but also creates a hazard for the rest of us.

My post had nothing do do with anyone's specific tech. You stated you could not find any information about hands on vs hands off and change in safety if intervention was needed. I only provided the logical line of progression that shows a link. Feel free to refute any link or the conclusion.

 

[NewTMSMan]

As a follow-up, Consumer Reports in their review of the Cadillac Super Cruise (Cadillac Super Cruise May Lead to Safe Hands-Free Driving) notes that:

"offers convenience without trading off on safety"
"It may seem counterintuitive that keeping your hands off the wheel could be safer, but in this case, it helps to reduce ambiguity over control, Fisher says."

Essentially saying their belief is that the driver engagement is what provides the safer environment and not whether or not the driver has their hands on the wheel.

 

[NewTMSMan]

My post had nothing do do with anyone's specific tech. You stated you could not find any information about hands on vs hands off and change in safety if intervention was needed. I only provided the logical line of progression that shows a link. Feel free to refute any link or the conclusion.

Feel free to provide any data other than a hypothesis.... I will not waste my day searching for data to counter prove your hypothesis, spend your time finding data to prove it.

 

[HankLloydRight]

All the "safety experts" who claim a device like this actually is a safety issue please provide one study showing that to be true.

Nobody here is claiming to be a "safety expert". Also, there have obviously been no studies on APB being safe. But it's not rocket science to conclude that a device clearly intended to defeat a critical safety feature in exchange for convenience, is, by definition, "unsafe". They even state it very clearly on their website with all the liability disclaimers.

 

[NewTMSMan]

Nobody here is claiming to be a "safety expert". Also, there have obviously been no studies on APB being safe. But it's not rocket science to conclude that a device clearly intended to defeat a critical safety feature in exchange for convenience, is, by definition, "unsafe". They even state it very clearly on their website with all the liability disclaimers.

Sorry, but there is a difference between actual safety, and what needs to be stated to avoid the liability for a person misusing the system are different.

My contention is the "hands on wheel" is not actually a safety feature at all and safety is not compromised by not having your hands on the wheel as long as your are being an attentive driver. Both Tesla and Cadillac developed their approach to ensure a driver is attentive and they have nothing to do with whether your hands are on the wheel or not. Tesla has simply chosen this as a proforma for driver attentiveness, i.e. if your hands are on the wheel then you are being attentive. I contend this is not the case at all and there is not one study anyone can provide that proves it is safer to have your hands on the wheel as opposed to not, as long as the driver is being attentive.

 

[mongo]

As a follow-up, Consumer Reports in their review of the Cadillac Super Cruise (Cadillac Super Cruise May Lead to Safe Hands-Free Driving) notes that:

"offers convenience without trading off on safety"
"It may seem counterintuitive that keeping your hands off the wheel could be safer, but in this case, it helps to reduce ambiguity over control, Fisher says."

Essentially saying their belief is that the driver engagement is what provides the safer environment and not whether or not the driver has their hands on the wheel.

There is no ambiguity with AP, the driver is always in control.

Feel free to provide any data other than a hypothesis.... I will not waste my day searching for data to counter prove your hypothesis, spend your time finding data to prove it.

Ok, In 10 tests, it took me longer to move an object I was not originally holding than one I was. Feel free to verify results.
I have also verified that time relates directly to car displacement. Also, there is a strong correlation between reaction time and accident avoidance.

Pretty sure you are debating a different point than I am, perhaps the safety of a hands off system vs hands on? Yeah, looks like you are

My contention is the "hands on wheel" is not actually a safety feature at all and safety is not compromised by not having your hands on the wheel as long as your are being an attentive driver.

It still takes longer to move a steering wheel you are not holding than one you are though...

 

[NOLA_Mike]

So naturally someone will soon build a dynamic weight that jiggles the wheel an appropriate amount at random intervals. Of course, for TRACK USE ONLY.

I would think something liquid filled would do the trick.