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Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
It's not a question of being impatient, or of thinking Tesla isn't working hard. I've posted before that I definitely do not want Tesla to release the software before they are certain it is ready, and that I can't imagine that any reasonable person does.
What I would like is for Tesla to --do something-- for those of us early adopters who have once again been let down. It doesn't have to be a major concession that's going to cost Tesla a lot of money. But I think Tesla could come up with something, as a good-will gesture. They don't even have to acknowledge that they did anything wrong, since we know they don't like to do that.
In my mind, that's what Tesla can do to most easily right this wrong.
This is ridiculous. Tesla didn't do anything "wrong" there is no wrong to right. READ everything Tesla put in writing. READ the contract you signed. You will receive an over the air update that will ad this functionality over time. Period. No definite date. They hope to have it done in a few months but hoping isnt a contract.
people need to stop being so whiny. Seriously, how entitled do we feel?
people need to stop being so whiny. Seriously, how entitled do we feel?
The irony of these complaints are because we have the only car that can be improved over the Internet after its left the dealer. We could go back to annual versions, no updates, no forward looking improvements, regular electric car or we can just wait patiently for a feature that will come at some point.
I dont have atuopilot HW, but I'm still waiting for improved traffic navi, because Google maps is better then the car navi.
I dont have atuopilot HW, but I'm still waiting for improved traffic navi, because Google maps is better then the car navi.
It seriously boils down to how everything was and is presented. If they hadn't done live demonstrations of the autopilot software and hardware on the P85D at the D event I most likely would still be driving my non-autopilot P85. They demonstrated it. They spoke about virtually everything as if it were available now in the present tense. I mean seriously, no one I spoke to at Tesla at the time I ordered had even considered the possibility of this not being available by now. Everyone was very optimistic on the release, several thinking it would possibly be ready at delivery. Not one person had any doubt that the demo'd functionality would be available by the time I took my summer drives (June), and believe me I asked quite a few questions.
The current text on the official web site is ambiguous as to whether or not the features described are available or not. I don't give a crap what the defenders have to say about this. It's Tesla's web site and their content and this is intentional.
The only caveat about autopilot on the Model S page is this one line: "Autopilot features are progressively enabled over time with software updates. The current software version is 6.2, adding automatic emergency braking and blind spot warning." Now, a non-owner is not going to know in what order Tesla releases features. After reading everything up to this point it makes it sound like the car does everything else described on the page, they'll be adding more features, and the latest ones are automatic emergency braking and blind spot warning. How does a non-owner/prospective buyer have any idea that automatic emergency braking is released before the other present-tense described features.
Specs: Autopilot Convenience Features add: Traffic-aware cruise control, Automatic lane centering, Self-parking Automatic, high/low beam headlights.
No asterisk. Nothing. Present tense.
Then on the order page is the same ambiguity. Same bullet point features with a one liner caveat: Lane keeping and self-parking will be enabled with over the air software updates. Again, a non-owner or someone otherwise unaware of this situation would not automatically assume ,based on this line, and especially after reading everything else on the website, that these features would not be usable yet.
Seriously folks, there is no excuse for this. There is no excuse for non-existent features to be referred to in present tense as if they exist right now. That is misleading no matter how you spin it. It's a shady tactic to drive sales at the expense of gambling that they'll alienate and/or piss off their customer once they realize they've been duped.\
When I ordered my P85D, almost immediately after the D announcement, I had no indication that the autopilot feature was not going to be available as demonstrated until I started asking questions about how it would work. The the optimistic demeanor of everyone I spoke to with regard to the time frame was pretty solid.
"But wk057, you should research your $100,000 purchases a lot more first!" Sure, but as a prospective buyer from a reputable company why would I have any reason to disbelieve what they state on their official site vs some other 3rd party?
I listened to the audio from the D event yet another time. At no point in the announcement was it said that these features were still in development, aside from the articulating charge cable thing. At no point. Everything was "the car does" X or "the car can do" Y. Oh and by the way, take it for a test ride and we'll show it doing this.
If that's not misleading I don't know what to tell you.
As for the contract, my MVPA says "Tech Package with Autopilot." I have no feature I can turn on that is called autopilot, so technically the contract is on my side. No where in any signed contract that I have does it say anything about autopilot features coming via updates. It says I bought and paid for the Tech Package with Autopilot. I'd be curious as to if any newer MVPA has any caveats on this, but mine does not.
The current text on the official web site is ambiguous as to whether or not the features described are available or not. I don't give a crap what the defenders have to say about this. It's Tesla's web site and their content and this is intentional.
The only caveat about autopilot on the Model S page is this one line: "Autopilot features are progressively enabled over time with software updates. The current software version is 6.2, adding automatic emergency braking and blind spot warning." Now, a non-owner is not going to know in what order Tesla releases features. After reading everything up to this point it makes it sound like the car does everything else described on the page, they'll be adding more features, and the latest ones are automatic emergency braking and blind spot warning. How does a non-owner/prospective buyer have any idea that automatic emergency braking is released before the other present-tense described features.
Specs: Autopilot Convenience Features add: Traffic-aware cruise control, Automatic lane centering, Self-parking Automatic, high/low beam headlights.
No asterisk. Nothing. Present tense.
Then on the order page is the same ambiguity. Same bullet point features with a one liner caveat: Lane keeping and self-parking will be enabled with over the air software updates. Again, a non-owner or someone otherwise unaware of this situation would not automatically assume ,based on this line, and especially after reading everything else on the website, that these features would not be usable yet.
Seriously folks, there is no excuse for this. There is no excuse for non-existent features to be referred to in present tense as if they exist right now. That is misleading no matter how you spin it. It's a shady tactic to drive sales at the expense of gambling that they'll alienate and/or piss off their customer once they realize they've been duped.\
When I ordered my P85D, almost immediately after the D announcement, I had no indication that the autopilot feature was not going to be available as demonstrated until I started asking questions about how it would work. The the optimistic demeanor of everyone I spoke to with regard to the time frame was pretty solid.
"But wk057, you should research your $100,000 purchases a lot more first!" Sure, but as a prospective buyer from a reputable company why would I have any reason to disbelieve what they state on their official site vs some other 3rd party?
I listened to the audio from the D event yet another time. At no point in the announcement was it said that these features were still in development, aside from the articulating charge cable thing. At no point. Everything was "the car does" X or "the car can do" Y. Oh and by the way, take it for a test ride and we'll show it doing this.
If that's not misleading I don't know what to tell you.
As for the contract, my MVPA says "Tech Package with Autopilot." I have no feature I can turn on that is called autopilot, so technically the contract is on my side. No where in any signed contract that I have does it say anything about autopilot features coming via updates. It says I bought and paid for the Tech Package with Autopilot. I'd be curious as to if any newer MVPA has any caveats on this, but mine does not.
thegruf
Active Member
sure is a lot of excitement here.
my take is:
So, the timeline here is likely being driven by the Model X deliveries, and as this is an increasingly firm temescale, therefore if not today then not long to wait folks.
For me, the problems really magnify if the features are not released for the S when the X is released.
my take is:
- autopilot will be made available to Model S prior to Model X release - Tesla will want existing user feedback to make Model X launch as successful as possible.
- v7 Software may be required as a major restructuring of software appears to be on the cards, indeed again re Model X it is possible that develpment is only being done on the v7 architecture.
- Tesla may well be already harvesting anonymous data from the cars with current autopilot features, to enable improvements to features yet to be released. This would be a very SV approach.
So, the timeline here is likely being driven by the Model X deliveries, and as this is an increasingly firm temescale, therefore if not today then not long to wait folks.
For me, the problems really magnify if the features are not released for the S when the X is released.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
At the risk of being "WK'd" for off topic posting....
This thread repeats a pattern I've seen in so many other threads. There is something big being done by Tesla that no one else has done like SuperCharging. Tesla hypes it big time and gets everyone all excited. The foot soldiers do not posses Elon's skills for walking the promise but do not really pin myself down commit skills and present the benefit as real and immediate. WRT SuperCharging, people take the hype as gospel and some even plan trips based on the "soon" or end of 201x map depiction of SC locations. Tesla misses on the dates. People start talking fraud and Tesla owes early adopters something. Tesla delivers. A year later, no one really remembers anything about it and Tesla has pulled off something that no one else has done or even bothered to try.
Perspective helps.
Has Tesla yet again over hyped something. Probably.
Will they do what they said they will do. Probably.
Will any of this matter years from now. Maybe if new customers start seeing these practices as fraudulent.
From my perspective, I'll just watch and enjoy seeing Tesla fumble their way through multiple AP releases until they have something we are all happy with. It was one of the reasons I traded to the PD; I'm ok with waiting.
This thread repeats a pattern I've seen in so many other threads. There is something big being done by Tesla that no one else has done like SuperCharging. Tesla hypes it big time and gets everyone all excited. The foot soldiers do not posses Elon's skills for walking the promise but do not really pin myself down commit skills and present the benefit as real and immediate. WRT SuperCharging, people take the hype as gospel and some even plan trips based on the "soon" or end of 201x map depiction of SC locations. Tesla misses on the dates. People start talking fraud and Tesla owes early adopters something. Tesla delivers. A year later, no one really remembers anything about it and Tesla has pulled off something that no one else has done or even bothered to try.
Perspective helps.
Has Tesla yet again over hyped something. Probably.
Will they do what they said they will do. Probably.
Will any of this matter years from now. Maybe if new customers start seeing these practices as fraudulent.
From my perspective, I'll just watch and enjoy seeing Tesla fumble their way through multiple AP releases until they have something we are all happy with. It was one of the reasons I traded to the PD; I'm ok with waiting.
Soolim
Member
Did the SC person said that NHTSA hold up the auto-parking or just the auto lane change? Or it was just auto pilot in general?
JimmyAZ
Member
Soolim
Member
I speculate that MX will have more sensors than MS therefore MS user response does not truly apply to MX. Beside, if they are waiting for MS user response on autopilot to launch MX, when would MX launch be, given the delay of MS autopilot. Timeline is not very well plan if that be the case.
I further speculate that MX autopilot will work on day one. Could even be earlier than MS autopilot
. And MS will require more sensors for the promised autopilot functionality in stop and go traffic as well as auto parking:redface:
Although I disagree with you, I believe you have clearly stated your position and made some good points, and I understand your frustration with Tesla.
Where I think your argument fails is your saying that the delayed release of full Autopilot functionality (and by "delayed" you mean not installed in your car when you took delivery) is an "intentional" act by Tesla and that Tesla deliberately deceived you.
In my opinion yes it is "intentional" but not in a fraudulent manner. Elon did not promote Autopilot at the D event with the intent of tricking people into buying cars before Autopilot was ready for release. You can believe that if you want but it would be impossible to prove in court. Elon thought it would be released in a few months but it turns out that he was overly optimistic (not for the first time, as we all know) and it is taking longer to get it right than anticipated. So Tesla has "intentionally" delayed release because it's not ready for release yet. They don't want to release a product before it's ready.
Autopilot is hard to do right, even in the limited fashion that Tesla has described. Yes, other car companies have done something similar already, but Tesla hasn't and they want it to be right. You are upset that it is many months later than what you expected. I think everyone understands that. If you want to take legal action that is your right but I think that would be a mistake and you won't win.
I could tell you that you are still driving the finest car ever made but obviously that won't mollify you at this point. Autopilot will come. Letting this delay spoil your enjoyment of the car is a mistake, in my opinion.
I empathize with the stakeholders in this argument. I'm sure I'd find it slightly unreasonable as well, specifically if I'd purchased the D for the sole purpose of autopilot. Given the way it was presented, I do think I would have expected the features to be available much sooner than this.
That said, I'm more the type that would just enable insane mode let the inertia of my ill feelings allow them to be left far, far behind.
That said, I'm more the type that would just enable insane mode let the inertia of my ill feelings allow them to be left far, far behind.
I've been largely quiet on this thread. I'm chiming is now because wk just said something that resonated with me.
I was at the D event. I flew to LA from DC to be there. I was driving a P85+ at the time and had very little intention of upgrading prior to the event. I just went to visit some friends and have some fun. I am an early adopter and love tech, so yes I knew there was a non-zero chance of me upgrading prior to the event, but AWD and a faster car wasn't going to do it alone, especially considering the financials involved.
It was the autopilot features combined with the additional range that got me, and the fact that tesla took us all for demo rides left me with the impression that the software was a few (2-3) months away from being ready. Even the Tesla employees at the event thought so too.
I'm a huge Tesla fan, as many of us here are. I've gone out of my way to support the company and the cause, because I believe in both and appreciate just how difficult what Tesla is trying to accomplish is and will continue to be. Someone can argue that I have a bias, and that's fair. I probably do. I'm willing to give Tesla a ton of wiggle room and the benefit of doubt.
At the time of the D event Tesla already had a track record of underestimating dates. And to be fair, I suspect much of this comes from Elon, not the engineering teams. Imho, his intent is not nefarious. He, like many successful leaders, push the people they are leading to do something that they're not sure they are capable of doing. He believes, and the energy and optimism he emits is contagious. And it spreads to us, Tesla's customers. Set ambitious goals, and people will work their asses off to deliver.
Knowing full well Tesla's track record to date, I should have known better that what tesla was demonstrating could be many, many months away. The engineer in me should have seen that the demo was done in a very controlled environment. But I didn't. I got caught up in the excitement. And I honestly thought the value of my P85+ was about to tank, hard. I sold it 5 days later, which did turn out to be a good financial decision. However had I known then what I know now I likely would have waited.
Do I regret buying? No, the P85D is a great car. It is a significant improvement to my 10,0xx earlier specimen from a fit and finish perspective. I am disappointed that lane keeping (I think that's the feature we all really care about) has taken this long. I am actually more annoyed with the range promises that have not materialized, mostly because I get the impression they never will vs. lane keeping will eventually be delivered. The range discussion has mostly disappeared here, interestingly enough. Perhaps because the 85D has seen an improvement in range.
Tesla will deliver on the autopilot features, even if it means they have to retrofit all shipped AP cars with new hardware. Could they do a better job of setting expectations? Yes, of course. Could the website be more clear? Definitely. Do I think tesla is walking a tight rope? Probably. A reasonable person who is not familiar with Tesla could easily be confused by the current descriptions, and I would not blame them for the confusion or being annoyed upon delivery. This I think is the most significant risk to Tesla right now. Trust and brand is a fickle thing. It's very difficult to build, and easy to lose. Tesla's brand is arguably one of it's most valuable assets right now. I'd hate to see them tarnish it.
However the worst thing tesla could do is release lane keeping before it's ready. One accident where lane keeping was involved could severely hurt Tesla's brand. So while delivering late is costing them, delivering an unsafe feature would be far, far worse. To this point, I'm giving Tesla a huge amount of wiggle room. And if I may, I ask everyone to remember what the overarching goal is- move the world to using sustainable energy. We're all very privileged to be able to afford the best car on the market today, and to help achieve the larger goal.
Anyway, thanks for reading my thought stream. Back to your regularly scheduled debate
Andrew
I was at the D event. I flew to LA from DC to be there. I was driving a P85+ at the time and had very little intention of upgrading prior to the event. I just went to visit some friends and have some fun. I am an early adopter and love tech, so yes I knew there was a non-zero chance of me upgrading prior to the event, but AWD and a faster car wasn't going to do it alone, especially considering the financials involved.
It was the autopilot features combined with the additional range that got me, and the fact that tesla took us all for demo rides left me with the impression that the software was a few (2-3) months away from being ready. Even the Tesla employees at the event thought so too.
I'm a huge Tesla fan, as many of us here are. I've gone out of my way to support the company and the cause, because I believe in both and appreciate just how difficult what Tesla is trying to accomplish is and will continue to be. Someone can argue that I have a bias, and that's fair. I probably do. I'm willing to give Tesla a ton of wiggle room and the benefit of doubt.
At the time of the D event Tesla already had a track record of underestimating dates. And to be fair, I suspect much of this comes from Elon, not the engineering teams. Imho, his intent is not nefarious. He, like many successful leaders, push the people they are leading to do something that they're not sure they are capable of doing. He believes, and the energy and optimism he emits is contagious. And it spreads to us, Tesla's customers. Set ambitious goals, and people will work their asses off to deliver.
Knowing full well Tesla's track record to date, I should have known better that what tesla was demonstrating could be many, many months away. The engineer in me should have seen that the demo was done in a very controlled environment. But I didn't. I got caught up in the excitement. And I honestly thought the value of my P85+ was about to tank, hard. I sold it 5 days later, which did turn out to be a good financial decision. However had I known then what I know now I likely would have waited.
Do I regret buying? No, the P85D is a great car. It is a significant improvement to my 10,0xx earlier specimen from a fit and finish perspective. I am disappointed that lane keeping (I think that's the feature we all really care about) has taken this long. I am actually more annoyed with the range promises that have not materialized, mostly because I get the impression they never will vs. lane keeping will eventually be delivered. The range discussion has mostly disappeared here, interestingly enough. Perhaps because the 85D has seen an improvement in range.
Tesla will deliver on the autopilot features, even if it means they have to retrofit all shipped AP cars with new hardware. Could they do a better job of setting expectations? Yes, of course. Could the website be more clear? Definitely. Do I think tesla is walking a tight rope? Probably. A reasonable person who is not familiar with Tesla could easily be confused by the current descriptions, and I would not blame them for the confusion or being annoyed upon delivery. This I think is the most significant risk to Tesla right now. Trust and brand is a fickle thing. It's very difficult to build, and easy to lose. Tesla's brand is arguably one of it's most valuable assets right now. I'd hate to see them tarnish it.
However the worst thing tesla could do is release lane keeping before it's ready. One accident where lane keeping was involved could severely hurt Tesla's brand. So while delivering late is costing them, delivering an unsafe feature would be far, far worse. To this point, I'm giving Tesla a huge amount of wiggle room. And if I may, I ask everyone to remember what the overarching goal is- move the world to using sustainable energy. We're all very privileged to be able to afford the best car on the market today, and to help achieve the larger goal.
Anyway, thanks for reading my thought stream. Back to your regularly scheduled debate
Andrew
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All of the amateur (at least in my case) legal arguments and desires to bring legal action (or not) very much miss the point for me.
I posted up-thread, "Promotion-Aggressive Marketing-Deception-Fraud ... its all a spectrum. The courts exist precisely for the purpose to resolve disputes of this type.
At some point, someone is likely to avail themselves of that dispute resolution mechanism. Tesla has much more to lose if that occurs than a single
counter-party or class. The risk here is reputational for Tesla -- and today, frankly, the entire value of Tesla as an on-going entity is tied up in its brand image.
A widely publicized dispute could result in them being known as "the company who fails to deliver", rather than the company "that does what others cannot".
Bottom line, Tesla needs to deliver on its promises. On time. In full. We "the entitled" do in fact feel we are "entitled" to receive what was promised just as
Tesla is "entitled" to keep our money.
Soolim
Member
+1. It should not be too hard to add sensors at the side windows to do the job, specially with bus comm technology.
Insane
Banned
I've been largely quiet on this thread. I'm chiming is now because wk just said something that resonated with me.
I was at the D event. I flew to LA from DC to be there. I was driving a P85+ plus at the time and had very little intention of upgrading prior to the event. I just went to visit some friends and have some fun. I am an early adopter and love tech, so yes I knew there was a non-zero chance of me upgrading prior to the event, but AWD and a faster car wasn't going to do it alone, especially considering the financials involved.
Anyway, thanks for reading my thought stream. Back to your regularly scheduled debate
Andrew
Very well said. I don't think this is intentional. TESLA is doing its best. Elon said Summer and summer isn't over yet. I see news that the beta version of AutoPilot has been released to a select few owners. I don't see discussion on this.
Soolim
Member
I am curious on what proof can we get assuming the public beta testers (if true) are probably under some NDA.
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