Autowipers. What happened to the K.I.S.S. principle?

[insaneoctane]

I subscribe to the "Keep It Simple (Stupid)" philosophy and I think it generally is a good engineering principle. I feel like in many cases Tesla/Elon subscribes to this too. But, what about these autowipers!? To save, what, like $1.83 per car to avoid putting in a dedicated rain eye/sensor, Telsa now has to develop a neural network to drive the wipers? How many lines of code have been developed to support this? How many man hours? How much CPU cycles are our already undersized EAP computers wasting looking for rain? Are we supposed to get a superior product when the NN finally gets trained? I'm totally lost by this approach as it seems the opposite of KISS!

 

[bhzmark]

It's obviously KISS in the long run. Once the software is figured out, no more marginal cost for the sensor for now until infinity. Minimizing parts and add'l wiring and points of failure is simplifying. It just depends on finally sorting the software to utilize multiple functions from the same sensor.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Auto Wipers currently use the camera(s). That seems pretty simple - if it really worked consistently.

The glass in front of the cameras in my P3D+ is pretty much always dry @ 30mph or above - due to the wind and the aerodynamics of the car. Therefore the cameras can't see the rain.

I don't know how software could change / fix this.

 

[ewoodrick]

Yea, there ain't any such thing as a simple sensor that can correct drive the wipers. Even the ones in use on other vehicles probably require a lot of code to make them work.

Look at Tesla from the longer viewpoint. The goal is not to make the wipers work for you, the goal is to make the wipers work for the Autopilot. And what's the best way to do that? Exactly like you do today, look out the window and see if your visibility is hampered. That's a lot easier said than done. And before you return with its obvious for a human, that's very afar from the truth, as I go a lot longer without wipers than my wife does. In fact, for me, some rain situations, for me, are better with the wipers off, than on.

And from a slightly different viewpoint, it is imperative that an Autopilot know when it's vision is reliable or not. So no matter what you want, that algorithm has to be created, just to know if safe automatic driving is possible.

 

[RiverBrick]

Falcon wing doors should have killed any notion you had that Tesla adheres to KISS.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Falcon wing doors should have killed any notion you had that Tesla adheres to KISS.

The Model 3 IS KISS. ( which was created after the falcon wing doors. )

 

[Darscot]

I find he going to far with trying to keep it simple for the end user. He wants it so the driver never has to do anything and it just works. Trying the one size fits all is the problem. I want the wipers to "learn", let me set the speed of wipers and then the camera just goes when I sense this much rain the driver wants this speed. It's not any learning technology its just basic memory functionality. This would be the best of both worlds, the car would also remember different speeds for different lighting. Every driver is different the one size fits all will never be great, its going to be lowest common denominator.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I subscribe to the "Keep It Simple (Stupid)" philosophy and I think it generally is a good engineering principle. I feel like in many cases Tesla/Elon subscribes to this too. But, what about these autowipers!? To save, what, like $1.83 per car to avoid putting in a dedicated rain eye/sensor, Telsa now has to develop a neural network to drive the wipers? How many lines of code have been developed to support this? How many man hours? How much CPU cycles are our already undersized EAP computers wasting looking for rain? Are we supposed to get a superior product when the NN finally gets trained? I'm totally lost by this approach as it seems the opposite of KISS!

No, Tesla needs to develop recognition of rain. If the car can't recognize rain, then it can't drive itself in the rain using vision.

 

[Knightshade]

Yea, there ain't any such thing as a simple sensor that can correct drive the wipers. Even the ones in use on other vehicles probably require a lot of code to make them work.

Except that's a solved problem.

My 2008 Lexus, with the $2 sensor, worked flawlessly for the 11+ years I drove it.

Look at Tesla from the longer viewpoint. The goal is not to make the wipers work for you, the goal is to make the wipers work for the Autopilot. And what's the best way to do that?

The best way?

Put the $2 sensor in, then run the "software" sensor in shadow mode for millions of miles to teach itself how to work as well as the sensor.

then you can stop putting the sensor in new builds.

That accomplishes the same goal-likely quicker since it has a "known good" base to compare to- and in the meantime the wipers don't suck for hundreds of thousands of owners for months or years.

 

[Relayer]

Just came in to chime in to agree. I've been squawking about it in the v46.2 thread, since that's when it seemed to go from sometimes almost working, to pretty much not working at all.

The fact that it's inconsistent between M3's with the same software is ridiculous.

 

[richyrich]

No, Tesla needs to develop recognition of rain. If the car can't recognize rain, then it can't drive itself in the rain using vision.

Yeah I think someone at Tesla grossly underestimated the complexity of “seeing” rain and ignored the well-proven IR-based method for rain sensors that works so well in so many other cars. Oops.

 

[Relayer]

Yeah I think someone at Tesla grossly underestimated the complexity of “seeing” rain and ignored the well-proven IR-based method for rain sensors that works so well in so many other cars. Oops.

Yes, I'm highly skeptical that an advanced neural network can properly gauge micro-climates. Hopefully they'll get close enough for most cases.

 

[Eno Deb]

Yea, there ain't any such thing as a simple sensor that can correct drive the wipers. Even the ones in use on other vehicles probably require a lot of code to make them work.

The typical IR sensors are actually extremely simple and require very little logic (they simply measure the amount of IR light reflected by the windshield, which changes if the glass gets wet). They have been around for decades, long before cars had significant compute power. They have worked perfectly in every car I've owned, whereas the Model 3 auto wipers are complete crap at the moment.

Look at Tesla from the longer viewpoint. The goal is not to make the wipers work for you, the goal is to make the wipers work for the Autopilot.

The autopilot seems to have very little problem with rain. I recently drove through a downpour and was amazed how well the car still recognized the lanes even when I barely could. Ironically it even worked when the auto wipers failed. It seems the cameras have little problem seeing through heavy rain.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I'm totally lost by this approach as it seems the opposite of KISS!

I don't get it, we're talking about Tesla, right?

 

[Electroman]

Yeah I think someone at Tesla grossly underestimated

Hmm.. I can guess who that someone is. The same person who got us the Falcon wing doors.

 

[Big Dog]

I subscribe to the "Keep It Simple (Stupid)" philosophy and I think it generally is a good engineering principle. I feel like in many cases Tesla/Elon subscribes to this too.

Uh, no, he does not.

 

[RiverBrick]

The Model 3 IS KISS. ( which was created after the falcon wing doors. )

The OP wrote,

I feel like in many cases Tesla/Elon subscribes to this [KISS] too.

No mention of Model 3 only.

However, if you want to stick to the Model 3, what do you think of the redesigned charge port? Is it simple? I know someone who had a Model S during four Winters and is on his third Winter with a Model X. He never had a problem with any charge port until he couldn't use his new Model 3 one morning due to the new charge port locking mechanism freezing.

 

[Garlan Garner]

The OP wrote,

I feel like in many cases Tesla/Elon subscribes to this [KISS] too.

No mention of Model 3 only.

However, if you want to stick to the Model 3, what do you think of the redesigned charge port? Is it simple? I know someone who had a Model S during four Winters and is on his third Winter with a Model X. He never had a problem with any charge port until he couldn't use his new Model 3 one morning due to the new charge port locking mechanism freezing.

A frozen charge port has nothing to do with simplicity ( KISS ).

 

[Darren Donovan]

Auto Wipers currently use the camera(s). That seems pretty simple - if it really worked consistently.

The glass in front of the cameras in my P3D+ is pretty much always dry @ 30mph or above - due to the wind and the aerodynamics of the car. Therefore the cameras can't see the rain.

I don't know how software could change / fix this.

Makes you wonder if they even tested the car at different speeds in different conditions?

 

[cicob]

Falcon wing doors should have killed any notion you had that Tesla adheres to KISS.