Battery degradation warranty question.

[Jason71]

for info- I get 122 miles from 100% to 0% charge, I used to get 220 ish. I use about 510wh/mi on Ave, so I’m not trashing it…. And it’s the commute I’ve always done…. I’m just wondering if it’s the cold weather? Or if something is wrong?…. I commute about 100 miles per day and now have to charge to 100% to make the trip, and am on amber/red batt when I get back….before (august) an 80% charge did the trip easily with no range anxiety….. hope that info helps

220 miles at 510wh/mi would have been a usable capacity of 112kwh which is much greater than the capacity of your battery so when you were getting 220miles you must have been averaging much less than the 510wh/m you say you are getting now so your consumption clearly has gone up
Winter will make a big difference. less so on long journeys but still a big difference. you are likely to see a winter range drop of 20+%.
In the really cold weather we had pre-Christmas that might be more like 30%.
I don't know what the typical wh/m for an X is so not sure if yours is high.
What does the new more detailed energy graph in the car show about your usage?
My top tips for Winter range are pre heat well on mains power then turn the heater fan down to low and put the heated seat on. Did 2019 X have heat pumps? if not then this is will make more of a difference.

 

[AidanR]

That isnt going to work as its not going to account for any power lost while not driving, so unless you drove that "100% to 0" in one drive, it wont be accurate as far as capacity.

Thanks jjrandorin, no, I didn’t do it in one drive, I thought that regardless of drive that the 69.7kw figure was all ithe batt could give as I wasn’t measuring it against the miles of range, (so for instance overnight if it used a few watts, the mileage would drop accordingly as the battery didn’t have those lost watts to Calc against miles anymore) - again thanks for the info, it all helps me realise if I’m doing something wrong

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks jjrandorin, no, I didn’t do it in one drive, I thought that regardless of drive that the 69.7kw figure was all ithe batt could give as I wasn’t measuring it against the miles of range, (so for instance overnight if it used a few watts, the mileage would drop accordingly as the battery didn’t have those lost watts to Calc against miles anymore) - again thanks for the info, it all helps me realise if I’m doing something wrong

No worries

Hopefully I am not coming across too dry, as that isnt my intention. As for running your numbers, I dont know where on the screen to point you to, but in the thread I linked above, post 3 has some additional detail on numbers to grab. You want the energy application. I thought all teslas had that but perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[AidanR]

220 miles at 510wh/mi would have been a usable capacity of 112kwh which is much greater than the capacity of your battery so when you were getting 220miles you must have been averaging much less than the 510wh/m you say you are getting now so your consumption clearly has gone up
Winter will make a big difference. less so on long journeys but still a big difference. you are likely to see a winter range drop of 20+%.
In the really cold weather we had pre-Christmas that might be more like 30%.
I don't know what the typical wh/m for an X is so not sure if yours is high.
What does the new more detailed energy graph in the car show about your usage?
My top tips for Winter range are pre heat well on mains power then turn the heater fan down to low and put the heated seat on. Did 2019 X have heat pumps? if not then this is will make more of a difference.

Hi, thanks for the reply, yes, good point on the 510wh/mi, I think in summer I’m more like low 400wh/mi (maybe no heating etc)….. plus, I never really ran it flat in the summer as I only do about 100 miles a day commute, so the 220 was a bit of a guess, probably because from memory I’d get home and still have 120 or so miles of range left, thinking I’d done about 100 miles that’s where I got the 220 figure from, I probably should have said it was a rough estimate of summer range, rather than an accurate statement- I only started looking into the batt range issue over Xmas as it was cold and I’d noticed the batt almost flat from my commute, where before I just charged it up and went, not thinking about range… hope that helps clear it up

 

[AidanR]

No worries

Hopefully I am not coming across too dry, as that isnt my intention. As for running your numbers, I dont know where on the screen to point you to, but in the thread I linked above, post 3 has some additional detail on numbers to grab. You want the energy application. I thought all teslas had that but perhaps I am

Hi, no you aren’t dry- but I do get what you mean now…. The energy application was on my model 3 that I part ex’d for this X…… I don’t think the energy app is on the x like it was on the 3….(or at least I can’t find it in the menus like I could on the 3) And when I had the 3 it didn’t have ‘rated or typical’ mileage options, so I think there must be some differences between the models….. that’s why I was getting confused as I’d tried to do the Calc suggested for the model 3 and it came back as my batt has ‘130% of its original capacity’ using the figures that were available in the x lol!! I’ll post a few pics of what you get in the x for energy so you can see the difference (you only get energy info that’s in these pics, and the mileage/range percentages are the only options in the pics too)

 

[AidanR]

Plus this screen, but it only mirrors the information on the other smaller screen between the steering wheel on the x

 

[Jason71]

Plus this screen, but it only mirrors the information on the other smaller screen between the steering wheel on the x

This info is a bit hard to do anything with
you say you do about 120 miles per day right?
so tomorrow make a note of and post the following

Batt % when leaving for work
Bat % arriving at work
wh/m on journey to work
miles to work
kwh consumed driving to work

then
Batt % leaving work for home
Bat % arriving home
wh/m on journey home
miles driven home
kwh consumed driving home.

Using this info it is possible to work out the usable capacity of the battery e.g if you go from 100% battery to 40% and you have used 48kwh then you know that 48kwh = 60% of the usable battery and therefore the usable capacity is 80kwh.
A longer single journey would be better but this will give a good indication

 

[jmaddr]

@AidanR , you have a 2019 S/X which had the unlimited miles but no warranty on degradation. Tesla added the degradation sometime in 2020. So, even if you are low and have a degraded battery, it's not covered I'm afraid. You could make a case it's undriveable at current capacity and see what you get.

Tesla updates battery warranty | electrive.com

www.electrive.com

For Model S and Model X, an upper limit for mileage is introduced. However, a shift from usage time to mileage affects all Tesla drivers.

The previous eight-year unlimited mileage warranty on the Model S and Model X for the battery and drivetrain has been eliminated and replaced with a 150,000 mile (approx. 240,000 km) limit. Tesla also accommodates the drivers of a Model S and Model X and improves the warranty conditions for the battery in other areas: a fixed value for the minimum capacity is now specified, as in the case of the Model 3 (where it has been since its introduction), it is 70 per cent.

 

[jjrandorin]

Hi, thanks again, I can understand you have a lot of posts on batteries, and I’m sure they get tiresome! I’ve had a few teslas, and know the range is shorter in cold, I know the 100% range is hardly ever correct….. it was just that full charge to zero saying 69.7kw that made me think even in the cold the kw usage would not change? Just the wh/mi would increase because of the heating/seats/lights etc being used more than normal? - is that correct? Or does the usable kw also go up and down depending on the weather? That would part answer my concerns, also if when using the link above for the model 3 batt Calc you’d use ‘typical miles’ or ‘rated’ miles?…..

If you were really bored, and I mean really bored, could you maybe look at my figures and help me out with which ones to use?….

Currently I’m at

116 miles range ‘typical’
145 miles range ‘rated’
48% battery (currently charging)
I’ve used 550wh/mi since last charge
The option for ‘since 5 min ago doesn’t exist on my display, but it says ‘since 16:50 (3.5h ago) it’s 433wh/mi….. but I’ve been parked for some of that time and I’m also on charge now….

@scottf200 , by any chance would you know the way a person could gather the information needed to run the calculation for degradation that you helped @AlanSubie4Life with that we have sticked in the model 3 subforum, on a model X? (tagging you both, here).

I dont have one of those so dont know how to advise them to gather the information needed to do this:

Calculating Your Battery's Estimated Capacity Using the Car's Energy Screen

Re posting here and making this a sticky post so it doesnt get lost. @AlanSubie4Life originally posted: =========================================== (originally posted by @AlanSubie4Life. Original thread this appeared in can be found here: ( 2021 model Y scan my Tesla battery size)...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Tonybvi]

Just out of interest, in this cold weather what sort of mileage do you get from half/full charge? I think we have the same size batt pack, so that could be a good indicator if it’s just winter weather affecting the range?

My lifetime average over 25000 miles is just on 350w/mile. I did a cold weather run from Aberdeen to Preston the other day and with a bit of careful driving and battery preconditioning before leaving home I managed to get to Tebay (circa 250 miles). I don’t like doing this in winter but both Abington and Gretna were full. As a rule of thumb I use 250 to 300 miles range in summer and 200 to 250 in winter and this still seems to hold good for me. Your 550 w/mile seems very high to me. Even with heater and lights on and 70mph on motorways I am generally under 450. It’s a 100kw pack.

 

[scottf200]

@scottf200 , by any chance would you know the way a person could gather the information needed to run the calculation for degradation that you helped @AlanSubie4Life with that we have sticked in the model 3 subforum, on a model X? (tagging you both, here).

I dont have one of those so dont know how to advise them to gather the information needed to do this:

Calculating Your Battery's Estimated Capacity Using the Car's Energy Screen

Re posting here and making this a sticky post so it doesnt get lost. @AlanSubie4Life originally posted: =========================================== (originally posted by @AlanSubie4Life. Original thread this appeared in can be found here: ( 2021 model Y scan my Tesla battery size)...

teslamotorsclub.com

There is a thread on the energy graph for Palladium (2021+ refresh) Model X that was missing.

2022 Model X (Plaid) Energy Graph

Hi Everyone, and happy new year. Today I took delivery of my brand new 2022 Model X Plaid. This is my 3rd Model X and my 7th Tesla, so I'm reasonably familiar with these cars. However, I feel I'm a bit lost (and not just because of the Yoke ;) -Does anyone know where the energy graphs are...

teslamotorsclub.com

For a while the voice command “Show Energy” worked until software version 2022.20.5
(also "display energy chart")

Then it looks like Palladium S/X are getting their Energy Graph back on firmware 2022.36 per

2022 Model X (Plaid) Energy Graph

Hey everyone, New to the Tesla world. Our 2022 Model X Plaid finally arrived in June. I don’t understand the obsession with the energy chart. The car tells me the range remaining. I’m not going to alter my speed on the interstate because of wind. I’m going to set the cruise the speed I want...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Adopado]

I would recommend using the Tessie app. The free introductory period would be sufficient to give you a battery health estimate. It will show how your car compares to similar models in the fleet.

 

[scottf200]

I would recommend using the Tessie app. The free introductory period would be sufficient to give you a battery health estimate. It will show how your car compares to similar models in the fleet.

That is a good suggestion. As another option I similarly recommend TeslaFI.COM but I suspect either would give you an idea of how you compare.

Here is the TeslaFI.COM example from my 2017 X 100 where I put in the purple box of some of the details. I suspect Tessie does something similar but couldn't tell all the details based on the app images in Google Play.

 

[Olle]

If you were really bored, and I mean really bored, could you maybe look at my figures and help me out with which ones to use?….

Currently I’m at

116 miles range ‘typical’
145 miles range ‘rated’
48% battery (currently charging)
I’ve used 550wh/mi since last charge
The option for ‘since 5 min ago doesn’t exist on my display, but it says ‘since 16:50 (3.5h ago) it’s 433wh/mi….. but I’ve been parked for some of that time and I’m also on charge now….

Didn't need to be bored because this only took a minute
According to the UK site, your car with 22" wheels it is rated at 301 Miles (or 337 if its a NEDC car (earlier 2019?)). You write that have got 145 Rated miles / 48% charged. 145/48%=302 miles. So there is no degradation, alternatively there is 11% if you have NEDC.

BTW for those who are curious: 'Rated', 'typical' and 'ideal' miles are fixed relative to the available battery capacity. If the battery has been recently cycled between high and low, the number is fairly accurate. No need to go through elaborate schemes to figure out the degradation, unless you need a super precise number.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Your warranty doesn’t have a degradation guarantee, so even if you can show it’s shrunk bu 30% it’s not a warranty matter. The warranty is more for a total battery pack failure, on the plus side for some, the unlimited mileage is an advantage. You should be able to find the appropriate warranty document from this list as it’s linked to the time of manufacture

Tesla warranty documents

Tesla warranty documents including previous versions

tesla-info.com

For degradation, you need to be mindful of a few key points. Anything based on consumption or how much charge you’re adding is inaccurate because the figures you see don’t include everything. You can however work out your battery capacity relatively easily using data from the energy screen, it’s very similar to the TMC approach posted earlier, but more as a guide than a narrative and discussion so probably easier to follow

Tesla battery degradation and health

Tesla battery degradation and health, and how to calculate

tesla-info.com

Or if you want to share your tesla token

Tesla battery capacity

Tesla battery capacity calculator

tesla-info.com

The later way is how the apps all do it, but note the warnings on variability in the readings, something that applies to all of them, simply due to rounding, temperature etc, you can visibly see the noise on some of the plots in previous posts. At least this way you don’t need to sign up or install an app and the last time I tried it, it also explains how they work it out using your data. That said, it won’t be more than 1 or 2% out.

The final thing to note is BMS calibration and cell balancing can restore any lost range, it’s more a thing on the Model 3 and model y, but if the above suggest you’ve lost more than you’d like, the technique is worth a try.

Tesla battery management system (BMS) calibration

Tesla battery management system (BMS) calibration instructions

tesla-info.com

Again, you’ll see they make reference to the hidden service menu and the similarities in approach.

It’s a lot of links to one site, but it’s my go to place after TMC

 

[yessuz]

bloody hell - 500 wh/mi...
model 3 does it like 250 wh/mi especially on long journeys @72 mph

 

[AidanR]

View attachment 894374Didn't need to be bored because this only took a minute
According to the UK site, your car with 22" wheels it is rated at 301 Miles (or 337 if its a NEDC car (earlier 2019?)). You write that have got 145 Rated miles / 48% charged. 145/48%=302 miles. So there is no degradation, alternatively there is 11% if you have NEDC.

BTW for those who are curious: 'Rated', 'typical' and 'ideal' miles are fixed relative to the available battery capacity. If the battery has been recently cycled between high and low, the number is fairly accurate. No need to go through elaborate schemes to figure out the degradation, unless you need a super precise number.

Thanks Olle! I’ve just logged on here to post as I’d been on to tesla and they explained exactly the same thing…. The 69.8kw in the display that’s called ‘since last charge’ only gives the figure for driving- not other services doesn’t it?…. I didn’t know that part, so when I’m reading 69.8kw, that doesn’t include any kw used for heating/lights etc so it makes perfect sense that the ‘missing’ 30kw or there abouts is being used for all these other things in winter…… thanks again for the reply, and I can have peace of mind that I don’t need to sell the car! Thanks again for all the useful comments everyone has given me…. I’m now off to do my 100 mile round trip with confidence!!

 

[AidanR]

bloody hell - 500 wh/mi...
model 3 does it like 250 wh/mi especially on long journeys @72 mph

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there- last winter I still had my model 3, and I was getting 350wh/mi-(ish, and that’s from memory) so no range problems…. The model x is a big beast, and I think also with your 250wh/mi comment that I must also be doing some ‘spirited’ driving by default as well !

 

[AidanR]

Resolved- so after all the help on here, and also tesla rang me back with some helpful info…. The 68.7kw I’m seeing in the display as ‘since last charge’ doesn’t include any auxiliary services like heating, the figure is purely for driving- so the ‘missing 30kw or thereabouts is winter auxiliary things like heating, which makes perfect sense…..

That coupled with someone’s comment that the 22” wheels have lower range than the 20” wheels means my battery has hardly and degradation at all….

Thanks again for everyone’s help, I’m so glad I don’t have to sell the car.

I think if tesla put a ‘degradation % button’ in the user interface, like I get on my iPhone to check battery degradation it would save a lot of worry, and probably save them and people on this forum answering repeat questions all the time!?

Thanks again, this was my first proper post here, I usually avoid forums due to keyboard warriors putting all sorts of Mismatch information on, but this has been great and informative.

I’ll be back soon and hopefully be able to help a few other people out with their questions.

 

[AidanR]

That is a good suggestion. As another option I similarly recommend TeslaFI.COM but I suspect either would give you an idea of how you compare.

Here is the TeslaFI.COM example from my 2017 X 100 where I put in the purple box of some of the details. I suspect Tessie does something similar but couldn't tell all the details based on the app images in Google Play.

I’ll try this, it looks really good, thanks