Battery Warranty not unlimited miles?

[cwerdna]

The Leaf really caused problems with people mistrusting batteries on EVs. My buddy's went down 50% in one year and Nissan wouldn't warranty it (seems it was on a case-by-case basis and his dealer was an ***).

'11 thru '15 Leaf and 24 kWh '16 Leaf have 5 year/60K capacity warranties. You need to drop to 8 capacity bars or less (out of 12) within that warranty and have the condition verified by a Nissan dealer before expiration. 8 out of 12 is a bit more than 30% capacity loss. There is also an 8 year/100K mile defects warranty on the HV battery.

30 kWh Leafs ('16 SV and SL, '16 "S30 and all '17) have a 8 year/100K capacity warranty and the same bar criteria. It is unknown if being down to 8 bars on these is the same % loss as on 24 kWh Leafs.

Numerous Leafers in hot climates have their HV battery replaced due to capacity loss within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty. Some who missed it before were often told to take a hike or in some cases, were offered some help on the cost. It was very YMMV. Nissan corporate now seems more willing to cover part of the cost of the HV battery after capacity warranty expiration.

 

[cwerdna]

200k on the drivetrain & battery would've assuaged the most reasonable fears.

Agreed

And the extra warranty on the LR feels shady. What car manufacturer changes your warranty depending on what engine you bought? Is this a thing? I don't think this is a thing.

And it makes you wonder. Are they cutting the batteries that close that 20k more miles makes a financial difference in warranty repair expenses?

The larger battery means higher margins for them to help cover warranty replacement costs. It is also a way of upselling.

 

[JeffK]

The larger battery means higher margins for them to help cover warranty replacement costs.

One great way to cover warranty costs is to make sure your product quality is high enough that it doesn't break down during the warranty period.

 

[gekcut]

In light of the the following statements

“In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.” EM 2014

On Twitter in August of 2014 EM posted that the warranty on battery and drive train for the Model 3 would be the same as those for the Model S.

"We are very happy with the quality of the drive unit. We changed the goal of the drive unit endurance from being approximately 200,000 miles to being a million miles – just basically we want drive units that just never wear out. That’s our goal. I think we made really good progress in that direction. the drive unit that are going out now and for the last several months have been excellent." EM 2015

the reports that the Model 3 drive train warranty will only last four years or 50k miles is a red flag for me. Unless that changes before we are contacted to proceed with our orders, our family will be cancelling our two reservations.

 

[JeffK]

In light of the the following statements

“In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.” EM 2014

On Twitter in August of 2014 EM posted that the warranty on battery and drive train for the Model 3 would be the same as those for the Model S.

"We are very happy with the quality of the drive unit. We changed the goal of the drive unit endurance from being approximately 200,000 miles to being a million miles – just basically we want drive units that just never wear out. That’s our goal. I think we made really good progress in that direction. the drive unit that are going out now and for the last several months have been excellent." EM 2015

the reports that the Model 3 drive train warranty will only last four years or 50k miles is a red flag for me. Unless that changes before we are contacted to proceed with our orders, our family will be cancelling our two reservations.

Make sure to tweet Elon about it... I figure the more people he reads it from, the better.

 

[SmartElectric]

I put on over 50,000 miles a year which is one of main reason I want a long range ev. I was disappointed to see that they capped the powertrain warranty.

Buy a CPO Model S, or frankly, any used Model S, you don't need to worry about warranty on the car, as you drive so much you'd be out of the standard warranty in two years anyway, but at least the Model S has unlimited km 8 year battery and motor warranty!

 

[Brian-MS90D]

Warranties from reputable companies make consumers feel great and the average consumer "assigns" significant value to them. I agree that the Model 3 warranty is disappointing because it is only industry-average and not Tesla-unique. I suspect that Tesla has likely gone too far in trying to create reasons for people to purchase the Model X and Model S (because the Model 3 is AWESOME).

That being said, I also doubt this reduced warranty factor will affect orders at all over the next 3 years due to the Tesla reputation and world history record demand for the Model 3.

 

[JeffK]

Warranties from reputable companies make consumers feel great and the average consumer "assigns" significant value to them. I agree that the Model 3 warranty is disappointing because it is only industry-average and not Tesla-unique. I suspect that Tesla has likely gone too far in trying to create reasons for people to purchase the Model X and Model S (because the Model 3 is AWESOME).

That being said, I also doubt this reduced warranty factor will affect orders at all over the next 3 years due to the Tesla reputation and world history record demand for the Model 3.

ICE industry average yes. You know, the dirty ICEs that use oil and a whole bunch of moving parts. The EV industry is still practically "greenfield" and they are setting an example to other manufacturers or they are making a statement about the reliability of 2170s....

 

[gambit48]

I still think the warranty is there just to drive more people to the S/X. Once production has caught up with demand, it would be easy to just "increase" the limit to unlimited or 1,000,000 or whatever.

From a business standpoint, I can see how having a mileage limit is a good idea. You need to start managing expectations. Especially with the crowd that's buying the 3. You have to start putting stuff in writing so that those with fanciful dreams of a $25,000 electric with 300 mile range either go away or start coming back down to reality.

 

[gekcut]

I still think the warranty is there just to drive more people to the S/X. Once production has caught up with demand, it would be easy to just "increase" the limit to unlimited or 1,000,000 or whatever.

From a business standpoint, I can see how having a mileage limit is a good idea. You need to start managing expectations. Especially with the crowd that's buying the 3. You have to start putting stuff in writing so that those with fanciful dreams of a $25,000 electric with 300 mile range either go away or start coming back down to reality.

So you imagine the warranty will be increased, but other posters have fanciful dreams?

If anyone has fanciful dreams, it's EM. Look at what he said about EV drive train warranties and the Model 3's in particular and what Tesla is now offering.

 

[internalaudit]

Tesla wants to sell ESA's and now my Uber moonlighting plan has been foiled.

I am sure the ESA will extend those to 8 years and maybe 50% additional miles.

 

[byeLT4]

The ESA's will be interesting for sure.I hope we can find out more about them soon.

 

[Matias]

So you imagine the warranty will be increased, but other posters have fanciful dreams?

 

[brkaus]

Infinite isn't necessary. The average car is driven 12k miles annually (per my insurance dude).

Why should they pay for taxi/limo type use?

Sure, they could bump it up a bit. It I don't see unlimited as necessary for the typical consumer.

 

[JeffK]

Infinite isn't necessary. The average car is driven 12k miles annually (per my insurance dude).
Why should they pay for taxi/limo type use?
Sure, they could bump it up a bit. It I don't see unlimited as necessary for the typical consumer.

It's not about that as much as believing in the technology and backing your product.

 

[gambit48]

So you imagine the warranty will be increased, but other posters have fanciful dreams?

If anyone has fanciful dreams, it's EM. Look at what he said about EV drive train warranties and the Model 3's in particular and what Tesla is now offering.

It's an easy marketing tool if (big if) demand slows to the point where Elon decides he needs some kind of incentive. Since we're talking a pretty far off hypothetical future. Hey, he's shooting for a million mile life for the motor. If he's anywhere close, by putting a year cap on it, there won't be all that many mileage claims. If he's serious about that Tesla network getting off the ground, then he better have that ultra durable motor or he's going to have a ton of warranty claims without a mileage limit (or not enough people will join the network if their cars will be run out of warranty in a couple of years if there still is a cap).

 

[ikjadoon]

No, it is more like changing your warranty based on the size of your gas tank.

Tesla changed the warranty on the S after it was launched, so they could decide to change it for the 3 if they wanted to.

I wonder if the Model 3 warranty covers all vehicle fires like the S does....

Haha, true. I actually wrote gas tank initially, but it sounded too ridiculous. I thought, "OK, this gas tank is a bit more complex. But it surely isn't as complicated as an engine."

Right, that's also true, but you'd think they've matured enough to have figured it all out by now.

Oh, interesting..did not know about fires being covered.

The bottom line is if you going to drive a lot of miles MS/MX would make sense with the infinite miles warranty and free supercharging. If you are driving around 10k miles per year than M3 is a better choice.

The larger battery means higher margins for them to help cover warranty replacement costs. It is also a way of upselling.

I still think the warranty is there just to drive more people to the S/X. Once production has caught up with demand, it would be easy to just "increase" the limit to unlimited or 1,000,000 or whatever.

From a business standpoint, I can see how having a mileage limit is a good idea. You need to start managing expectations. Especially with the crowd that's buying the 3. You have to start putting stuff in writing so that those with fanciful dreams of a $25,000 electric with 300 mile range either go away or start coming back down to reality.

At the same time, $35k car owners likely to keep their cars for longer than owners who have enough disposable income to afford a $70k car.

And the battery warranty is a shady place for upselling. Make the bumper-to-bumper shorter if you want to do that. But battery mileage--already people are liable to be concerned. Unlimited is too long, but 200k is a lot shorter than infinity.

But, let's be real: it could actually just be true. They might still experimenting with the 2170s at over 100k miles of use and they're using the margins on the LR to make up for the expected replacements. I'd like to not believe that, but there's a reason why automakers (like Tesla) claim why their warranties last longer than their competitors.

In light of the the following statements

“In hindsight, this should have been our policy from the beginning of the Model S program. If we truly believe that electric motors are fundamentally more reliable than gasoline engines, with far fewer moving parts and no oily residue or combustion byproducts to gum up the works, then our warranty policy should reflect that.” EM 2014

On Twitter in August of 2014 EM posted that the warranty on battery and drive train for the Model 3 would be the same as those for the Model S.

"We are very happy with the quality of the drive unit. We changed the goal of the drive unit endurance from being approximately 200,000 miles to being a million miles – just basically we want drive units that just never wear out. That’s our goal. I think we made really good progress in that direction. the drive unit that are going out now and for the last several months have been excellent." EM 2015

the reports that the Model 3 drive train warranty will only last four years or 50k miles is a red flag for me. Unless that changes before we are contacted to proceed with our orders, our family will be cancelling our two reservations.

Wait, is that right? I can't find that tweet referring to the Model 3.

 

[gekcut]

Here is a link to EM's tweets

Elon Musk on Twitter

Tesla is offering a drive train warranty (forget about the battery for the moment) of only 4 years or 50k miles. This is less than many other manufacturers including GM's warranty on the Bolt. It matches BMW and Audi, but EM has indicated EV warranties should be better than ICE ones.

We are located about 200 miles from the nearest Tesla Service Center. While in the past years people have assured me centers will be opened closer to me, it hasn't happened and I will not assume it will happen anytime soon. Based on Model S history, drive train problems were an issue. Now if I have a problem with the drive train, the 200 mile one-way distance for service will represent a real hardship as it will for any issue that require visiting the center. If Tesla had followed through on the above tweet, I would have felt they were confident in their product and our chances of having problems and needing to visit the center were small. The fact that they have backtracked makes me think they have reliability concerns.

 

[reynirb]

I will fill you in on all the Hyundai details if you want it. Basics - took a year and half to get my engine fixed under the 10yr/100k powertrain warranty (started having issues at 53,000 miles) and I had also bought the highest available extended warranty. Sure you are covered but good luck getting any of their techs to admit there's an issue. However to their "credit", it did get fixed eventually and I paid nothing out of pocket.

Edit: According to Hyundai there is nothing wrong with your engine sounding like this:

Sadly, the same experience I hear from many people. I seriously doubt my brother will replace his Genesis with another Hyundai.

What did they end up doing to address the issue?

 

[reynirb]

Here is a link to EM's tweets

Elon Musk on Twitter

Tesla is offering a drive train warranty (forget about the battery for the moment) of only 4 years or 50k miles. This is less than many other manufacturers including GM's warranty on the Bolt. It matches BMW and Audi, but EM has indicated EV warranties should be better than ICE ones.

We are located about 200 miles from the nearest Tesla Service Center. While in the past years people have assured me centers will be opened closer to me, it hasn't happened and I will not assume it will happen anytime soon. Based on Model S history, drive train problems were an issue. Now if I have a problem with the drive train, the 200 mile one-way distance for service will represent a real hardship as it will for any issue that require visiting the center. If Tesla had followed through on the above tweet, I would have felt they were confident in their product and our chances of having problems and needing to visit the center were small. The fact that they have backtracked makes me think they have reliability concerns.

They did however extend the Model S power train warranty when the realized there were early production issues. I would think if the power train on the Model 3 did have any issues, they would cover it.

My experience has been that Tesla has addressed every single issue I have brought up, and gone way above and beyond to get them resolved. In some cases replacing wear and tear parts there weren't even under warranty.

I personally think the drive unit concern is probably overblown. Tesla has had 5 years now to engineer out drive unit issues. The Model 3 is lighter and smaller than the Model S, and gets a newer improved drive unit, which I'm sure due to the early issues with the Model S drive unit, got an extensive testing before being released for production.

Unlike other manufacturers, I haven't seen Tesla hide from any issues but addresses them as soon as they appear. So, based on my personal track record, my confidence in Tesla addressing any issues is 100%.