Beginning of the end - at least in my mind

[BreatheEasier]

Tesla will add CCS connectors to Supercharger stations in the US, says Elon Musk

Most of the superchargers I use on the East coast are already well-used by Tesla owners, and having non-Tesla use at these chargers and inevitable wait times will completely change my approach to road trips, which I do very frequently. I just hope they really think this through and install many more Superchargers out here before making these moves, or I will seriously have to reconsider.

 

[father_of_6]

Yeah, I think it's far too early in the race to open these up to other manufacturers. At least there aren't that many of them on the road yet.

 

[sleepydoc]

Well, if it's any consolation, nothing Elon says actually happens when he says it will. You usually have to add at least a year!

 

[Gaige]

There is a good chance it won't be all chargers. Imagine two or three stalls having CCS ready.

I think it's a good thing if this is how it's rolled out. Depending where you are a lot of these sit idle all day and can be increasing the supercharger value / expansion. If it's all stalls, I am concerned too, especially being in California and have had to wait 15-20 minutes or more a handful of times on trips (V3 does help a bit with this now).

I drove through southern Maine yesterday on a trip and both directions north and south of I-95 Kennebunkport Superchargers had zero people at them, completely empty. They already had 2 ChargePoint chargers but could see locations like this making CCS ready stalls to a couple without much impact to Tesla owners.

 

[LoudMusic]

Well, if it's any consolation, nothing Elon says actually happens when he says it will. You usually have to add at least a year!

Or infinite years. There's plenty he's claimed that has never come to fruition. Though this I think will eventually roll out.

I wonder if they'll do every stall or just some of them at participating locations. I could see them doing like 2 or 4 CCS cables at an 8+ stall site. That way there's still dedicated Tesla spots.

 

[sleepydoc]

I really hope they only allow certain spots; part of the value of Tesla is the supercharger network. If they just convert them all to generic charging it essentially makes the car less valuable.

 

[TomServo]

I just hope Tesla sells a CSS adapter so if you pull into a SuperCharger and the only stalls open are CSS plugs you can use it and not sit and wait for a "Tesla Stall" to become available. The two need to be Hand In Hand.

Any OPEN stall at a SuperCharger regardless of the plug needs to be available to Tesla owners.

 

[kilpatds]

I just hope Tesla sells a CSS adapter so if you pull into a SuperCharger and the only stalls open are CSS plugs you can use it and not sit and wait for a "Tesla Stall" to become available. The two need to be Hand In Hand.

Any OPEN stall at a SuperCharger regardless of the plug needs to be available to Tesla owners.

Given the two-cable units they built in Europe during a switchover, I'd expect there to be no dedicated CCS stalls. I'm expecting everything that supports CCS to have a 2nd cable with the Tesla end.

 

[sleepydoc]

Given the two-cable units they built in Europe during a switchover, I'd expect there to be no dedicated CCS stalls. I'm expecting everything that supports CCS to have a 2nd cable with the Tesla end.

Why not? They could easily install 2-cable units on some of the bays and Tesla-only units on the others.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

There is a good chance it won't be all chargers. Imagine two or three stalls having CCS ready.

I think it's a good thing if this is how it's rolled out. Depending where you are a lot of these sit idle all day and can be increasing the supercharger value / expansion. If it's all stalls, I am concerned too, especially being in California and have had to wait 15-20 minutes or more a handful of times on trips (V3 does help a bit with this now).

I drove through southern Maine yesterday on a trip and both directions north and south of I-95 Kennebunkport Superchargers had zero people at them, completely empty. They already had 2 ChargePoint chargers but could see locations like this making CCS ready stalls to a couple without much impact to Tesla owners.

4 stalls would make sense to try to grab money. Federal requirement for "completing" the highway network is to have locations no more than 50 miles apart with at least 4 CCS plugs capable of 150kW or more. So add 4 CCS cables and it counts, even at a v2.

Tesla has a bunch of v2 locations that would qualify. They know which locations are busy and which aren't.
They've opened up lots of locations in Norway but not the busiest ones.

The negative of opening up is that they'd lose their moat. The positive is that it helps pay to expand the network.

Tesla can probably see that with the combination of the settlements that led to EVGo and Electrify America, plus the taxpayer funding, plus Plug&Charge likely finally, actually coming over the next 5 years, they're going to be losing a lot of the benefit of their moat anyway, so they might as well just try to be better at charging than other companies.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Why not? They could easily install 2-cable units on some of the bays and Tesla-only units on the others.

I think you're actually agreeing with them.

 

[father_of_6]

I'd expect there to be no dedicated CCS stalls.

Why not? They could easily install 2-cable units on some of the bays and Tesla-only units on the others.

Yes to both of these. I still vote for Tesla *not* opening up the network (selfishly), but if it happens it would be ideal if only a portion of stalls are available to third parties.

Tesla changing Superchargers so that they don't work with Teslas? In what world would that make sense?

 

[LoudMusic]

Yes to both of these. I still vote for Tesla *not* opening up the network (selfishly), but if it happens it would be ideal if only a portion of stalls are available to third parties.

Tesla changing Superchargers so that they don't work with Teslas? In what world would that make sense?

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[avs007]

I vaguely remember Bjorn saying in his video when he was demonstrating non-tesla charging at a Supercharger in Norway, that the app/pilot setup said that non-tesla charging would only be available when station utilization was below 50%. (if an "open" station fills up, it will stop accepting new non-tesla charging sessions)

 

[sleepydoc]

I think you're actually agreeing with them.

oops - I misread his statement. Thought he said no dedicated Tesla stalls.

 

[Vicj]

The reason I bought a Tesla instead of another EV was the Supercharger network. Take away that one advantage, abs why buy Tesla at all? Tesla needs to think ahead for when they're not the only game in town. Keep the advantages they have.

 

[father_of_6]

There may be more to this under the surface though. Is it possible that by *not* opening up to other manufacturers, government grants will be given that will allow other networks to overshadow Tesla's charging network?

Perhaps by opening up, they're preventing competitive overlap using gov't funds. If this were the case, it might be foolish not to.

I don't know the details of government funding related to charging networks, just thinking out loud.

Edit: I assume Tesla is not making these decisions without knowing all of the angles. They know their business.

 

[RTPEV]

The reason I bought a Tesla instead of another EV was the Supercharger network. Take away that one advantage, abs why buy Tesla at all? Tesla needs to think ahead for when they're not the only game in town. Keep the advantages they have.

What is it about the Supercharger network that you feel will be harmed by this?

 

[RTPEV]

There may be more to this under the surface though. Is it possible that by *not* opening up to other manufacturers, government grants will be given that will allow other networks to overshadow Tesla's charging network?

Let's even take government grants out of the picture, and fast forward to a time when Tesla is no longer the dominant EV on the road (I know there are those that refuse to believe this will ever happen, but believe me, it's inevitable unless Tesla is able to expand production to around 50M units per year, which is unrealistic).

So now we have a situation where a potential site host (let's say Alex's Convenience Store) is interested in hosting a charging site. Alex puts out RFQs to Tesla and the other charging networks. Tesla responds with a bid to install a Supercharger site with only Tesla connectors that can accommodate only about X% of the traveling population, where X% is something less than 50%. EA, EVgo, ChargePoint, Shell, and other networks come back with a proposal that can accommodate (100-X)% (>50%) of the traveling population, and also the remaining X% if they happen to have a CCS adapter (and maybe Alex keeps a few on hand to service those X%).

If you were Alex, who would you pick?

Or, Tesla could respond with a proposal to install Superchargers with CCS support and be able to claim that they can service 95% (everything except those old Nissan LEAFs that can barely make it on a trip anyway) of vehicles. Now who do you think Alex is going to pick?

And as a Tesla owner, are you going to be happier if Alex picks Tesla, albeit with non-Tesla vehicles using the same site, or a competing network that you may need a membership to to get the best prices and will have the same cars using anyway.

 

[father_of_6]

Let's even take government grants out of the picture, and fast forward to a time when Tesla is no longer the dominant EV on the road (I know there are those that refuse to believe this will ever happen, but believe me, it's inevitable unless Tesla is able to expand production to around 50M units per year, which is unrealistic).

So now we have a situation where a potential site host (let's say Alex's Convenience Store) is interested in hosting a charging site. Alex puts out RFQs to Tesla and the other charging networks. Tesla responds with a bid to install a Supercharger site with only Tesla connectors that can accommodate only about X% of the traveling population, where X% is something less than 50%. EA, EVgo, ChargePoint, Shell, and other networks come back with a proposal that can accommodate (100-X)% (>50%) of the traveling population, and also the remaining X% if they happen to have a CCS adapter (and maybe Alex keeps a few on hand to service those X%).

If you were Alex, who would you pick?

Or, Tesla could respond with a proposal to install Superchargers with CCS support and be able to claim that they can service 95% (everything except those old Nissan LEAFs that can barely make it on a trip anyway) of vehicles. Now who do you think Alex is going to pick?

And as a Tesla owner, are you going to be happier if Alex picks Tesla, albeit with non-Tesla vehicles using the same site, or a competing network that you may need a membership to to get the best prices and will have the same cars using anyway.

Right... so this is part of a bigger conversation. It's thinking of Tesla as not just as auto manufacturer, but as an energy provider. If they're going to grow as an energy provider, certainly they *have* to start supporting non-Tesla vehicles... but it's definitely a balancing act.

The Supercharging network is a huge benefit for Tesla as an auto manufacturer, and IMO makes a Tesla the most likely vehicle for those needing an EV for long distance travel.

When I start thinking about the future path of growing their charging network to accommodate other manufacturers, I can't help but end up at the conclusion that Tesla will eventually need to switch to CCS ports in their US vehicles too.