Beginning of the end for Tesla

[trueblue_ips]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

 

[Roy Batty]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

They're having to deal with the normal ups and downs of car sales driven by the economy, for the first time, and growing competition. Some of their choices alienate customers, Android Auto/Apple Carplay, stalk delete, not great timing perhaps.

They'll survive, it will just hurt.

E-Fuels need around 4 or 5 times the electricity generation of just putting it in a battery so I really don't see them becoming mainstream.

 

[mdunc]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

Worth mentioning that Ford, GM and VW amongst others have also made job cuts in recent months, they just don't make the headlines the way that Tesla does. The pain is across the industry right now.

 

[MrBadger]

E-Fuels need around 4 or 5 times the electricity generation of just putting it in a battery so I really don't see them becoming mainstream.

They also may be carbon neutral but still produce other (at tail pipe) byproducts (eg particulates and NOx) and indeed co2, albeit offset from carbon capture during manufacturing.

But still a step forward over regular fuel in limited circumstances (such as specialist or historical vehicles, aviation or shipping) but certainly not a widespread alternative.

IMHO

 

[Roy Batty]

They also may be carbon neutral but still produce other (at tail pipe) byproducts (eg particulates and NOx) and indeed co2, albeit offset from carbon capture during manufacturing.

But still a step forward over regular fuel in limited circumstances (such as specialist or historical vehicles, aviation or shipping) but certainly not a widespread alternative.

IMHO

Yep, it's one of those things for hard to solve situations, maybe construction equipment, that said Caterpillar are going heavy into batteries for their big excavators.

E-Fuels and hydrogen are used by the same people who were quite happy to spread around the FUD that 'EVs will break the grid' with absolutely no realisation of the irony.

 

[Durzel]

If you want a more positive spin, this might end up being good for customers.

If Tesla have to try harder to attract and retain customers by having to uplift the spec & QC on the cars, and on the customer service side of things for aftersales, and have to eat into their considerable (compared to market) margins by selling the cars for less, than customers ultimately win - don't they?

I highly doubt they're going to disappear but I can envision a world where their stock price is more based in reality rather than the fantasy world where everything Elon promises will come true. I have some Tesla shares but post-Twitter it is as clear as mud to me that the consensus of him as someone with a Midas Touch is long gone.

 

[Buzzliteyear]

Bucket of salt required again, the other day the new model was cancelled. Reminds me of a few years back, when apple stock was being manipulated to enable a group to buy at a lower price.

 

[MrBadger]

Bucket of salt required again, the other day the new model was cancelled. Reminds me of a few years back, when apple stock was being manipulated to enable a group to buy at a lower price.

A few years when I was involved as a moderator on here, the forum had an upgrade that was going to result in an extended downtime. Moderators had a back channel to keep abreast of progress.

In the end, the update took longer than expected, extending well into the period close to the start of trading week.

Long story short, this affected certain sub forums where a number of traders were trying to get together to (maybe strong wording) ‘manipulate’ the stock. This lack of access seemed to cause them a lot of angst as it clearly interfered with their ability to ‘manipulate’ the price so were regularly challenging the planned outage.

How big their influence would have been is unknown, but clearly group manipulating of stock prices goes on even within these sub forums.

 

[jblandford]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

Obvious troll is...obvious.

 

[Jason71]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

Don't forget Hydrogen. No end of the EV post is really complete without it

 

[455dan]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

Edit ... Sorry just saw the UK/ Ireland in the thread category.


I see the high price of oil / gas driving more people to purchase EV's that are perusing new vehicles this year, that should offset some of the above.

EIA Raises WTI Oil Price Forecasts

The U.S. Energy Information Administration raised its West Texas Intermediate oil price forecast for 2024 and 2025.

www.rigzone.com

Gas prices continue to rise, Georgia's prices still below average

The average gas price in Georgia has risen compared to last week, with residents now paying an average of $3.43 per gallon for regular unleaded gasoline.

www.aol.com

As gas and diesel prices increase, EVery electric vehicle where Grid power is cheap do become more appealing and Tesla Is the leader.

So being in America , and not knowing about UK energy costs, interested to know if fuel prices are on the rise there as well and what kind of grid prices you have there for a KWH?

 

[FastLaneJB]

E-Fuels need around 4 or 5 times the electricity generation of just putting it in a battery so I really don't see them becoming mainstream.

Which makes it very expensive to make and I think it's obvious that most buyers will buy whatever is cheaper. EV's cost more to buy and for the large amount of people that cannot charge at home, more expensive to run based on most public charging prices.

In theory over time electricity prices should become more predictable and cheaper. Fuel varies depending on what way the wind blows and there's lots of winds that can impact that right now.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Edit ... Sorry just saw the UK/ Ireland in the thread category.


I see the high price of oil / gas driving more people to purchase EV's that are perusing new vehicles this year, that should offset some of the above.

EIA Raises WTI Oil Price Forecasts

The U.S. Energy Information Administration raised its West Texas Intermediate oil price forecast for 2024 and 2025.

www.rigzone.com

Gas prices continue to rise, Georgia's prices still below average

The average gas price in Georgia has risen compared to last week, with residents now paying an average of $3.43 per gallon for regular unleaded gasoline.

www.aol.com

As gas and diesel prices increase, EVery electric vehicle where Grid power is cheap do become more appealing and Tesla Is the leader.

So being in America , and not knowing about UK energy costs, interested to know if fuel prices are on the rise there as well and what kind of grid prices you have there for a KWH?

If you can charge at home on a cheap rate then running an EV costs peanuts here. We have a lot of tax on our petrol and diesel which you skip using hone electricity.

However if you need to public charge. The story isn't as clear. For a Tesla it might still be better without me doing the maths because of their lower charging costs and high efficiency of their cars. Other EV's though on public chargers will cost a lot more per mile than most petrol and diesel vehicles.

 

[Jason71]

Edit ... Sorry just saw the UK/ Ireland in the thread category.


I see the high price of oil / gas driving more people to purchase EV's that are perusing new vehicles this year, that should offset some of the above.

EIA Raises WTI Oil Price Forecasts

The U.S. Energy Information Administration raised its West Texas Intermediate oil price forecast for 2024 and 2025.

www.rigzone.com

Gas prices continue to rise, Georgia's prices still below average

The average gas price in Georgia has risen compared to last week, with residents now paying an average of $3.43 per gallon for regular unleaded gasoline.

www.aol.com

As gas and diesel prices increase, EVery electric vehicle where Grid power is cheap do become more appealing and Tesla Is the leader.

So being in America , and not knowing about UK energy costs, interested to know if fuel prices are on the rise there as well and what kind of grid prices you have there for a KWH?

our electricity is not cheap but there is a lot of tax on Petrol so. It breaks down like this.
petrol is about £6.70 per UK gallon. So if a car averages 40mpg that is 16.75p/mile

Electricity on the other hand ranges from:
50-90p per kwh for public charging
26p for standard domestic
7-9p for overnight rates
you can sell solar for 15p

so at 3miles per kwh ( including charging losses etc that is more than fair before anyone says they get 4) the price to run an EV is anywhere between 2.5p to 30p per mile. Most EV owners are nearer the 2.5p end I suspect at present so running an EV is typically much cheaper in fuel than a petrol car here

 

[Drew57]

So being in America , and not knowing about UK energy costs, interested to know if fuel prices are on the rise there as well and what kind of grid prices you have there for a KWH?

I see you are in Idaho & I'm currently vacationing in Boise where electricity is a flat rate of 8c/kWh. At todays exchange rate that = 6.5 pence/kWh.

One of the lowest UK EV overnight tariffs gives 7.5 p/kWh but typically around 20-30p/kWh for most others including daytime rates (~9.5c to 24-35c/ kWh

You have extremely low cost electricity in Idaho!

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

A consideration for the argument that an e-fuel takes a lot of electricity to make, our overnight electricity is very cheap and at times to balance the grid they'll even pay you to use it, if someone could capture that to make an e-fuel or hydrogen (fuel) then it would help load balance and possibly be cheaper for mass storage. I think we often look at these things as one OR the other, there may well be a mix in future. I certainly think hydrogen seems to be a better option than battery for some of the bigger commercial use or public transport.

Back to Tesla, I don't think its the first time they've had a big redundency round, it depends where the jobs are really, and one notable departure is a guy who's been tweeting a lot about FSD and coming to Europe (Rohan Patel). His job title was Public Policy and Business Development, I hope that's not a sign of FSD having no chance any time soon in Europe.

Another departure, probably retirement, was Drew Baglino after 18 years at the company who lead engineering and technology development for its batteries, motors and energy products. In practice, that side of the business seems to have plateau'd recently

 

[PaddyB]

As legacy car manufacturers close the gap and overtake Tesla in the production of BEVs is this start of long term decline for Tesla?

Tesla lays off more than 10% of its workforce

Owner Elon Musk said it was a difficult decision to reduce Tesla's global headcount.

www.bbc.co.uk

In other news e-fuels, or synthetic fuels, are exempt from the EU 2035 petrol/diesel ban. F1 is now investing very heavily in e-fuels and what starts in F1 normally feeds its way down the chain eventually ending up in the family hatchback.

E-fuels are a bit of a joke really, unviable on the grounds of cost for 99% of the population. I don't think even their promoters are taking them particularly seriously, other than for keeping classic (or future classic) ICE cars running when legislation outlaws fossil fuels.

The Tesla news, while sad for the individual workers, is a good sign that Tesla is getting 'fighting fit' for its next big expansion. Such layoffs are common for tech / growth companies, but a bit of a shock if you are not in that space.

 

[455dan]

I see you are in Idaho & I'm currently vacationing in Boise where electricity is a flat rate of 8c/kWh. At todays exchange rate that = 6.5 pence/kWh.

One of the lowest UK EV overnight tariffs gives 7.5 p/kWh but typically around 20-30p/kWh for most others including daytime rates (~9.5c to 24-35c/ kWh

You have extremely low cost electricity in Idaho!

Wow Boise is even cheaper than up north...

N Idaho averages something like 70% of the grid power provided by Hydroelectric so the price has been very stable and affordable over the years. We pay 10-12 cents a KWH

 

[Foucault]

The current cost of e fuels is about $50 a litre which isn’t really a problem if you are a F1 team but a complete non-starter for consumers. It also takes about 20kWh of electricity to produce one litre of e fuel. If we tried to change all ice vehicles to e fuel we’d run qui out of electricity. Long term the price should come down but realistically you are looking at about $5 a litre pre tax and VAT, so about £5.45 a litre with current fuel duty, exchange rates and VAT. As things stand it’s only really a solution for the rich.

 

[Jason71]

A consideration for the argument that an e-fuel takes a lot of electricity to make, our overnight electricity is very cheap and at times to balance the grid they'll even pay you to use it, if someone could capture that to make an e-fuel or hydrogen (fuel) then it would help load balance and possibly be cheaper for mass storage. I think we often look at these things as one OR the other, there may well be a mix in future. I certainly think hydrogen seems to be a better option than battery for some of the bigger commercial use or public transport.

Back to Tesla, I don't think its the first time they've had a big redundency round, it depends where the jobs are really, and one notable departure is a guy who's been tweeting a lot about FSD and coming to Europe (Rohan Patel). His job title was Public Policy and Business Development, I hope that's not a sign of FSD having no chance any time soon in Europe.

Another departure, probably retirement, was Drew Baglino after 18 years at the company who lead engineering and technology development for its batteries, motors and energy products. In practice, that side of the business seems to have plateau'd recently

The talk was of making them in places like Africa near the coast. So you use the plentiful sun to make them cheap then straight on a ship to where you want them.
Sounds crazy and still not cheap even doing that. but then the UK is looking to build a 1500km2 solar and wind farm in Morroco and run 2000miles of cables back to Devon so what do I know.