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California to end gasoline car sales by 2035

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This story is why most politicians are considered idiots.

Go talk to Jean Average in your neighborhood hardware store. You will find that government mandates scare people. Newsom has actually hurt the EV adoption movement by putting EVs in the same category as increased property taxation.

Zealotry is good for making martyrs, not for making friends.

And that shows why Jean Average is an idiot. Government mandates got smoking banned from indoors, seat belts and air bags in every car, etc, etc. This isn't about 'making friends'... it's about kicking our pathetic addiction to fools fuel. I've been nice about the transition for ~10 years. Still the only one here in my sh*thole town that's kicked their addiction. I'm done being nice.


Electric cars sell themselves. They are a superior product. Why would anyone want people to think EVs are a punishment?

??? Banning ICE is not an EV mandate. There's bikes, walking, public transit, etc, etc...
 
And that shows why Jean Average is an idiot. Government mandates got smoking banned from indoors, seat belts and air bags in every car, etc, etc. This isn't about 'making friends'... it's about kicking our pathetic addiction to fools fuel. I've been nice about the transition for ~10 years. Still the only one here in my sh*thole town that's kicked their addiction. I'm done being nice.




??? Banning ICE is not an EV mandate. There's bikes, walking, public transit, etc, etc...
Why don't you just say what you really feel?
 
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And that shows why Jean Average is an idiot. Government mandates got smoking banned from indoors, seat belts and air bags in every car, etc, etc. This isn't about 'making friends'... it's about kicking our pathetic addiction to fools fuel. I've been nice about the transition for ~10 years. Still the only one here in my sh*thole town that's kicked their addiction. I'm done being nice.
??? Banning ICE is not an EV mandate. There's bikes, walking, public transit, etc, etc...

You need to socialize more. Just sayin'. ;)
People will think EVs are punishment if the grid collapses.

The per capita power use in the US has been climbing ever since Tesla and Westinghouse built the first large power plant.

The power use will climb again and the grid will be expanded. Again. Those who block it will brushed aside. Again.
 
Okay, fossil fuels aren't an option. Let's quit them completely and go 100% renewable.

Just to keep the numbers easy, I'm going to say we'll need 40,000 MW of grid generational capacity, especially during the overnight hours when people charge their cars. Suppose it all has to come from renewable sources. The sun doesn't shine at night (duh) wind generation is unreliable and other sources are just too small to really matter, so we need batteries.

If all 40,000 MW came from batteries, we'd need a battery with 400,000 MWh capacity (40,000 MW * 10 hours). Since it's not good to charge/discharge batteries completely and so often, perhaps we should round it up to 500,000 MWh just to keep things safe and to ensure a long service life before degradation sets in.

Batteries are expected to cost $100/kWh within a few years, so 500,000 MWh of battery capacity would cost approximately $50 billion, not including any of the inverters, switchgear, transmission lines, etc.

In order to "fill up" said battery during the daytime, we'd need a major excess of solar capacity. We only get about 6 hours of solid daylight in the middle of winter, so again, to keep the math easier, let's say we need ~66,666 MW of excess generation (400,000 MWh / 6 hours) to match the nighttime energy drain. At $0.20/watt, that's about $13 billion in PV solar panels, again, not including inverters, switchgear, transmission lines, etc.

Lastly, we'll need to greatly increase the number of charging locations. Costs vary wildly, but let's assume the average cost to install a L2 charger is $1,000 (it personally cost me $2,500 to install my TWC + DCC box). There are 10 million homes in California. That's $10B in charging infrastructure.

So far, my "back of the napkin" calculations are getting close to $75B in costs. And since projects like tthese are never completed in time and always come in over budget, maybe we should just pad it up to a nice, round $100B.

$100B is a pretty tough nut to swallow.

Your thinking 2020. 2030 is automatic charging where cars park during the day. You don't put solar into batteries to then put it into cars at night. You put solar directly into cars. There will be a universal accounting system and demand response control by the utility.

When it's sunny the electricity portion of cost is almost free. So a couple of cents tax on each kWh funds the system.

V2G makes a fancier system, but is probably not necessary. V2G may be most attractive for home power reliability and some arbitrage.
 
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Your thinking 2020. 2030 is automatic charging where cars park during the day. You don't put solar into batteries to then put it into cars at night. You put solar directly into cars. There will be a universal accounting system and demand response control by the utility.

When it's sunny the electricity portion of cost is almost free. So a couple of cents tax on each kWh funds the system.

I hope you understand California's grid has a problem - today - well ahead of any possible new wave of EVs which will attempt to charge from it.

One of the local utilities here (SDGE) operates a Chargepoint network at lots of commercial properties, office parks, etc. They charge market rate for juice, and every evening they send me an automated email with pricing for the next day. We're having another heat wave in SoCal today so demand's way up again. Today's electricity price? $0.89/kWh starting at 11am and $1.39/kWh from 1pm until 7pm.
 
I hope you understand California's grid has a problem - today - well ahead of any possible new wave of EVs which will attempt to charge from it.

One of the local utilities here (SDGE) operates a Chargepoint network at lots of commercial properties, office parks, etc. They charge market rate for juice, and every evening they send me an automated email with pricing for the next day. We're having another heat wave in SoCal today so demand's way up again. Today's electricity price? $0.89/kWh starting at 11am and $1.39/kWh from 1pm until 7pm.
So, they are sending you pricing signals. Are you acting on the information?
 
Yes, I'm looking up the cost of electricity in other parts of the country.

SunShine is free everywhere. :)

$0.17-$0.18, but that's not when people need it, obviously...

That's the other great thing about EVs. Plug it in and have it charge when electrons are cheap. That will actually help pull down the cost of energy the other hours of the day because the infrastructure is being used more effectively.
 
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I don't think moving to a different part of the country is the solution.

Here's how I see it:
- The CA grid is already strained (see above post re: SDGE peak cost) even without a large influx of new EVs
- More EVs in the future means even more strain on the grid. Peak hours will start to expand and off-peak windows will shrink
- Newsom's mandate will accelerate this, if anything
- CA has to add capacity, and if we expect this capacity to be carbon-neutral it will not come without a very large cost to the taxpayer and/or ratepayer

"Dark days may be ahead..."
 
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Here's how I see it:
- The CA grid is already strained (see above post re: SDGE peak cost) even without a large influx of new EVs
- More EVs in the future means even more strain on the grid. Peak hours will start to expand and off-peak windows will shrink
- Newsom's mandate will accelerate this, if anything
- CA has to add capacity, and if we expect this capacity to be carbon-neutral it will not come without a very large cost to the taxpayer and/or ratepayer

"Dark days may be ahead..."
California is also due for a large addition of renewables and batteries. Smart people are investing so you shouldn't assume that things will only get worse.
Numerous studies have been done on the impact of EVs on the grid and the consensus is that it's not a problem.

https://getelectricvehicle.com/impact-of-ev-on-power-grid/
A well managed bidirectional charging of electric vehicle can reduce the negative impact of EV on the power grid. It is needful in a grid as the numbers of electric cars increase.
Impact of EV on the power grid would turn to stabilize the power system. An electric car charging that scheduled in such a way to support the grid during peak hours as a micro-generator and as load in off-peak hours really helpful for the utility grid.

Electric Cars Could Destroy the Electric Grid—or Fix It Forever
EVs are batteries on wheel. Drivers with access to daytime plugs could fill up on energy while the sun is shining, then discharge that power back into the grid when demand peaks, earning the driver a little rebate. “And wind typically blows harder in the evening,” Kelly says, so nighttime EV chargers could suck up and store some of that energy, discharging their excess after driving to work to meet mid-morning demand. This modular approach to storing renewable energy tackles one of the biggest problems facing the wind and solar industries.
Finally, this whole swirling trend of EVs and renewable energy is happening while utilities nationwide are adopting so-called smart grid technologies—sensors and other feedback mechanisms that allow for real time models of demand. This is partly a response to past catastrophes, like the 2013 Northeastern blackouts. So, if electric vehicles do collide with the grid, it’s because utilities took their eyes of the road.
Most EVs allow you to schedule when they’ll charge after they’re plugged in, while smart chargers would allow the utility company keep track of when you charge – and control how much power gets sent to your charger during peak hours.

Are our power grids ready for an electric vehicle surge?
Quite frankly, handling an EV boom shouldn’t cripple utilities as long as they can plan for it, Clairman says.
“These are all problems that can be solved,” Clairman says. “But a lot of people get an EV and plug it in and never contact their utility, just like they never did when they put in a hot tub or a pool – you have to let them know.”

Australia’s electricity grid can easily support electric cars – if we get smart
Detailed simulations have shown that the same network that started to fail at a 10% uptake with uncontrolled charging is able to sustain more than an 80% uptake when vehicle charging is shifted, using simple optimisation algorithms. Through this sort of demand management, most of our existing networks should be able to handle electric vehicles for decades to come.
 
Here's how I see it:
- The CA grid is already strained (see above post re: SDGE peak cost) even without a large influx of new EVs
- More EVs in the future means even more strain on the grid. Peak hours will start to expand and off-peak windows will shrink
- Newsom's mandate will accelerate this, if anything
- CA has to add capacity, and if we expect this capacity to be carbon-neutral it will not come without a very large cost to the taxpayer and/or ratepayer

"Dark days may be ahead..."

andy92782, do you know which state ranks dead last in the US for grid reliability?

It ain't California! California ranks smack in the middle, actually.

West Virginia (90% coal) ranks dead last for reliable electricity. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/infrastructure/energy

Comment about that!
 
andy92782, do you know which state ranks dead last in the US for grid reliability?

It ain't California! California ranks smack in the middle, actually.

West Virginia (90% coal) ranks dead last for reliable electricity. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/infrastructure/energy

Comment about that!

Just because our grid sucks less than someone else's doesn't mean it doesn't suck. Also, that data seems to be a few years old. Has it taken recent blackouts due to wildfires into consideration?