This will stir things up if approved - California's Proposal to Ban New Gas Vehicles

From today's news here in California:
California’s clean-air regulators Wednesday unveiled a far-reaching proposal requiring a ramp-up in sales of zero-emission cars, culminating in a ban on new gasoline-powered cars by 2035.

If adopted by the California Air Resources Board this summer, the regulations will be the first of their kind in the world and could pave the way for nationwide standards. At least 15 other states pledged to follow California’s lead on car standards on previous clean-car rules, and the federal government usually follows.

California Unveils Proposal To Ban New Gasoline-Fueled Cars

If adopted, the rules would be the first of their kind in the world, prohibiting new gasoline or diesel cars by 2035.

laist.com

("Charging a Tesla car.JPG" by Jeffrey Beall is licensed under CC BY 4.0.)

 

[nwdiver]

I wouldn’t call it a benefit as much as I would call it an offset. Higher energy prices make everything more expensive including those panels and battery backup if applicable.

Not really. Because of economies of scale. Solar is usually cheaper and easier to get installed in N Cal where electricity is more expensive than here in NM where it's cheap. The demand for PV is so low here in NM there's only a handful of companies that install it so there's basically no competition and the systems are viewed as more of a boutique accessory than something essential so they're sold that way. That's slowly changing but we're still a long way from N Cal prices.

Then there's 'Swansons Law'. For every doubling of solar production the cost drops by ~20%.

 

[israndy]

I think that @ElectricIAC is just trolling. He says he is the Devil's Advocate, but then instead of coming up with thoughtful opposing viewpoints he spews trash. Like he is being fed this garbage from some oil soaked Anti-EV site and he can't wait to see what the folks who actually know about EVs will say.

I am afraid he earn my setting him to ignore, and I suggest others follow me.

 

[ElectricIAC]

There’s no troll about it, just a realist’s view of current infrastructure and the prospect of drastically accelerating the rate of BEV adoption without building out both grid and energy source in preparation for it.

Us early adopters are willing to put up with the occasional queue at a supercharger or having to plan a longer route on a trip to ensure charging opportunities but as someone in the auto business I can tell you that’s a huge turn off for a lot of people.

 

[nwdiver]

There’s no troll about it, just a realist’s view of current infrastructure and the prospect of drastically accelerating the rate of BEV adoption.

...... because charging is restricted by electric supply ~20% of the hours during ~5% of the days???? Gosh..... no overcoming that....

 

[ElectricIAC]

...... because charging is restricted by electric supply ~20% of the hours during ~5% of the days???? Gosh..... no overcoming that....

Did an edit on earlier post to add some insight into roadblocks to adoption rates.

Not everyone buying an EV owns a house that they can upgrade their power supply to support decent L2 rates, those people will often depend on DCFC, or opportunity charging while at work or shopping.

These are also often the same people I get coming back to switch to a PHEV or fossil vehicle after trying to make it work with varying levels of success.

If you build it, they will come.

 

[ZenRockGarden]

Did an edit on earlier post to add some insight into roadblocks to adoption rates.

Not everyone buying an EV owns a house that they can upgrade their power supply to support decent L2 rates, those people will often depend on DCFC, or opportunity charging while at work or shopping.

These are also often the same people I get coming back to switch to a PHEV or fossil vehicle after trying to make it work with varying levels of success.

If you build it, they will come.

You've now come up (belatedly) with an actual interesting topic: Charing for those living in apartments.

That's worth looking at, and planning for. We have a decade to figure it out, and should get started.

It also has NOTHING to do with requests to avoid charging (and doing laundry) between the hours of 5 PM and 9 PM a few days per year.

 

[ElectricIAC]

You've now come up (belatedly) with an actual interesting topic: Charing for those living in apartments.

That's worth looking at, and planning for. We have a decade to figure it out, and should get started.

It also has NOTHING to do with requests to avoid charging (and doing laundry) between the hours of 5 PM and 9 PM a few days per year.

It has everything to do with limiting peak hours charging today: If the infrastructure and power supply was increased proactively as adoption began to ramp up this wouldn’t be an issue.

And now they announce a plan to ban fossil vehicle sales?

Fail to plan? Plan to fail.

 

[nwdiver]

Did an edit on earlier post to add some insight into roadblocks to adoption rates.

Not everyone buying an EV owns a house that they can upgrade their power supply to support decent L2 rates, those people will often depend on DCFC, or opportunity charging while at work or shopping.

These are also often the same people I get coming back to switch to a PHEV or fossil vehicle after trying to make it work with varying levels of success.

If you build it, they will come.

DCFC for people that have the misfortune of depending on it on a regular basis isn't going to get much better for that misuse. The solution is L2 at home and/or work. I don't know very many people that get charging setup at home BEFORE they get an EV. I have a friend taking delivery in 2 weeks. Still no charging setup. Humans do love to procrastinate. Probably why we're sitting here in 2022 so dependent on fools fuel

How does DCFC availability have ANYTHING to do with electric supply? Do you really think that reducing the time available to use DCFC by ~1% on an annual basis has a significant effect on availability???? ~1% is 'significant'?

 

[ZenRockGarden]

It has everything to do with limiting peak hours charging today: If the infrastructure and power supply was increased proactively as adoption began to ramp up this wouldn’t be an issue.

Sigh. We were so close to a worthwhile conversation, and now we're back to this nonsense.

The grid does not WANT to have a huge excess of capacity at peak. That's inefficient. You'd be building a grid with 50% more capacity than you need 99% of the time. It is both cheaper and better use of resources to just put in place proceedures to limit demand on those rare over-peak times.

Your apartment dwellers are a worthy topic, and they DONT want to charge at the most expensive time of day, regardless of how big you make the grid. They're generally mid to lower income and are very interested in costs. They will want a means to charge in the middle of the night, which we should be looking to enable for them, and it will have NOTHING to do with how much excess grid capacity there is at 6 PM when it's 105 degrees out.

You may now ignore everything I said and mindlessly repeat that we're grid limited.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Sigh. We were so close to a worthwhile conversation, and now we're back to this nonsense.

The grid does not WANT to have a huge excess of capacity at peak. That's inefficient. You'd be building a grid with 50% more capacity than you need 99% of the time. It is both cheaper and better use of resources to just put in place proceedures to limit demand on those rare over-peak times.

Your apartment dwellers are a worthy topic, and they DONT want to charge at the most expensive time of day, regardless of how big you make the grid. They're generally mid to lower income and are very interested in costs. They will want a means to charge in the middle of the night, which we should be looking to enable for them, and it will have NOTHING to do with how much excess grid capacity there is at 6 PM when it's 105 degrees out.

You may now ignore everything I said and mindlessly repeat that we're grid limited.

If supply is the constraint (assuming no grid bottleneck) at peak times, it seems to make a use case for battery banks to be filled overnight and to be distributed at those peak times to meet demand.

As for apartment dwellers, I’d like to see a system like Europe where you plug your own cord into the charger and the vehicle (which could be tied to a parking meter) and can charge a car overnight at 16-32A 208V.

 

[nwdiver]

If supply is the constraint (assuming no grid bottleneck) at peak times, it seems to make a use case for battery banks to be filled overnight and to be distributed at those peak times to meet demand.

So.... CA should invest >$10B in battery banks just so it's not a problem to charge EVs between 4pm and 9pm a handful of days per year????

Even... even if that wasn't completely insane. Wouldn't the smarter investment be ~$3B in gas turbines since it's only being utilized ~1% of the time?

The rational choice is to charge EVs overnight. There's an energy tax for energy storage. Why charge grid batteries at night then use that stored energy to charge EVs during the day? Why.... why not just charge the EVs overnight?

 

[h2ofun]

...The exact same peices. only smaller. My car holds ~100 kwh in its battery. My wife's holds about 70. My three power walls, together, hold around 20. There's no comparison other than they are all batteries. As far as V to G, I don't need it. My power walls give me power to make it through one of the many common power outages we have here, thanks to PG&E, and if the grid needs more power, maybe that's PG&E's problem. Tell you what. You give up your power some evening to help support PG&E and then wake up at midnight finding the lights won't work, the furnace won't work, the AC won't work, because you're in some sort of power outage, and then you find out your car's drained. No thanks.

can you do v to H?

 

[ThomasD]

Will Chargers that can support charging class 8 trucks need battery backups to take load off the grid at peak times?

 

[nwdiver]

Will Chargers that can support charging class 8 trucks need battery backups to take load off the grid at peak times?

No. The other ~99% of the year should be enough

 

[ThomasD]

When all the electric public buses return to depot and are charging would that put a strain on the grid?

 

[nwdiver]

When all the electric public buses return to depot and are charging would that put a strain on the grid?

No. That typically occurs after ~10pm when there's plenty of surplus capacity.

 

[David_Cary]

I suppose it is always good to question "how are we going to handle this situation". But sometimes it becomes a good place to inject anti-EV propaganda.

As someone who drove an EV on Labor Day weekend, I would like to give my perspective. I drove 150 miles. Who in their right mind would drive a few hundred miles - in traffic - for a 3 day weekend? I mean a few will. But I am willing to bet - not that many. I mean do people go from LA to SF by car for a 3 day weekend? Maybe I should say do 10% of people make that trek for fun for a 3 day weekend? I am absolutely sure that some people do (or similar trip to Tahoe etc) but it isn't a huge number. And guess what - they will be inconvenienced - mostly because of charging wait times.

And I think it is great that we are talking about this but banning SALES in 2035 means that apartment dwellers can do fine with gas until 2045 if they really want. That is 23 years away. 23 years ago people used AOL and the Blackberry phone was released.

And - it is really quite simple to put chargers in parking lots over a 23 year time span. You really can survive with L1 most of the time - for most people. And consider the efficiency gains over 23 years. Wouldn't 6-7 miles per hour (OMG - skinny tires - the tragedy!) on L1 be relatively easy to do? So 50 miles when you sleep let alone eating, watching TV etc. 100 miles might be typical. Let's hope that not that many people commute over 100 miles ... from their apartment ... very often. See apartments tend to be built in cities and people can move pretty easily when they rent (if their job moves). I am sure we can find several examples of people who are outliers. They have disabilities that requires a bigger car and can't move for the same reason. But, there will be winners and losers. Guess what? - lots of people are going to die (and already do) because of FF use. Perspective.

Buses. They will always be designed to make it through rush hour on a single charge and maybe fill up lunch time but mostly overnight. Certainly not 4-9 pm.

 

[nwdiver]

And - it is really quite simple to put chargers in parking lots over a 23 year time span.

I bet northerners really get a good chuckle over this idiotic notion that providing a way to plug their car in to everyone that doesn't own a house is a novel impossible challenge on par with landing a man on mars.

 

[israndy]

Except that every car owner in the country benefits from this service, so it's taxable. If America, with maybe 10% of cars on the road using plug in chargers, the other 90% would revolt if we said we were gonna put in free charging in all parking lots.

And keeping an engine above freezing is much less energy intense than charging an EV

 

[nwdiver]

Except that every car owner in the country benefits from this service, so it's taxable. If America, with maybe 10% of cars on the road using plug in chargers, the other 90% would revolt if we said we were gonna put in free charging in all parking lots.

And keeping an engine above freezing is much less energy intense than charging an EV

That's just a breakdown of understanding. Gas cars benefit from EVs because there's less demand for gas so gasoline gets cheaper. Plus all the other benefits of having one less oil burning scooting around the streets.

It's not the energy required but power delivered that's the issue for setting up charging in a parking lot. Those outlets are standard 15A 120v. 15A 240v would require the exact same amount of effort to install which would be good for 12A @ 240 which is 2.8kW. Worst case is ~2.5kW (~8mi/hr). So setting up a row of 2.5kW chargers is functionally no different than a row of block heaters.

And even the energy consumption may be lower depending on the weather. I had a friend give up on leaving his truck plugged in all night because it was using ~6kWh per night. That's on par with all a lot of people would need.