I'm merely pointing out that the statement "they didn't say faster, they said outperform" doesn't make sense because they're equivalent. I'm not taking sides on whether it is or isn't faster because, like you said, we have no reliable data for the F1.
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Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter
- Thread starter kseitzberg
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
I'm merely pointing out that the statement "they didn't say faster, they said outperform" doesn't make sense because they're equivalent. I'm not taking sides on whether it is or isn't faster because, like you said, we have no reliable data for the F1.
I think the marketplace is somewhat different in the US and Denmark and Norway. In Denmark and Norway the car is priced at half or even lower of equal ICE performance cars, which means that a lot of the people buying these cars, has never owned a performance car before. On top of that rollout is a US thing, not european, but we have been over this before. So no to a.
And for b:
And what specs are Tesla using to up sell their customers from a 85D to a P85D?
That the P85D has 5 doors? No wait, the same goes for the 85D
That the P85D has four wheels? No wait, the same goes for the 85D
That the P85Ds top speed is 155 mph? No wait, the same goes for the 85D
I can only see the quicker 0-60 mph time and more hp in their argument. And when I ordered my car those two specs where presented as 100% comparable. Which Tesla is now saying that they are not.
So yes, I do think that acceleration and hp is important.
But I'm willing to listen to your arguments about what the extra $20+ for the P85D is other than the acceleration and hp, since we agree on people should get what they pay for.
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I guess the only way you are ever going to believe that a F1 was/is able to do 3.2s without rollout is if you see it with your own eyes, which will never happen. So we will put you on record as a firm negative on that one. Ok?
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Thank you for following up on this. I have submitted a formel question for assistance with the Danish Car Owners Association. As you properly know these organisations do not reply immediately with a yes or no answer, but they have confirmed that they have recieved my question.
I will let you know when I have a more clear advise from them.
It's ok, I take it he is geniuenly interested
Really. My personal expectation is that any and all arbitration/legal complaints along the lines expressed in this thread are not reasonable (no harm, no foul) and owners who try to pursue them will be thoroughly disappointment, as expressed in my previous posts. It is my understanding that you do not share this point of view.
So why such irritation at my question? Do you not like to settle this dispute? Or would you like this to fester forever to continue to inflict harm onto everybody involved: the owners who feel wronged by the Company, the owners who feel otherwise, EV community in general, and the company - Tesla Motors?
So yea, your question is really puzzling. Care to elaborate?
So, as indicated, I contacted McLaren, asking for the clarification of data included in the Motor Trend article. The response was quite terse, and did not include any characterization of the information included in Motor Trend article; it also did not include "McLaren executive stating that F1 0-60 time was with no roll out". It just included a reference (without an actual link) to "Autocar magazine recording 0-60mph in 3.2 seconds from standstill, no rollout"
So here we have it , it is not Mclaren vs. Tesla as rns-e put it , it is actually Autocar info, vs. a Motor Trend info. My conclusion is that apparently there is some diversion of data on McLaren F1, and the representative from McLaren did not feel strongly enough on this one to either question Motor Trend information, nor to put out official McLaren data on this.
Tesla, perhaps unwisely, chose 0 to 60mph acceleration of P85D matching the acceleration of the McLaren F1 as their marketing theme. Since according to their information 3.2s for the McLaren was with a rollout, in order to have their data match the marketing theme, they switched from using acceleration data without rollout (all variants except P85D) to using data with rollout for P85D. The plentiful talk recurring in this thread about how "sleezy" was Tesla in their calculated attempt to mislead the prospective buyers is a real stretch.
The text of my email and McLaren response in their entirety is included below:
McLaren Response:
So McLaren is sticking to their guns.
When you say 'Since according to their [Tesla] information 3.2s for the McLaren was with a rollout', is this something you know? Is Tesla's source the Motor Trend article which came out in november 2014 or the Road and Track first drive where there is no 0-60 mph time? Just want to be sure, since you seam to have some inside information about how Tesla came about the fact it should be with rollout and on that basis decided to change they way they present 0-60 times.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
It's not whether I believe it or not, it's that people are taking the word of someone and using as the basis for an argument against the P85D. In other words, there is no "evidence" that what the executive said is true...but apparently his word is all people need.
EDIT: Saw the Autocar article referenced. Have e-mailed them to get some information on how the figure was arrived. However, I find it odd that we're only able to find one tested reference to the 0-60 time on such a famous vehicle. I mean, DragTimes was getting 3.1 seconds when Tesla was quoting 3.2. So, it may not be the best policy to put so much stock in these numbers.
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This fixation on the 0-60 time of the F1 is odd. I know Tesla brought it up but are people worried they'll come up to an F1 on the street and get smoked? At worst Tesla is 0.2-0.3 seconds behind the F1. Since no one can find independent testing that seems to verify McLaren's claim with modern testing equipment Tesla has about a valid argument as any.
Sorry, to say that they are sticking to their guns is quite an overstatement here. I would agree with you if in their response they share the results of their internal testing and say that it is matched by the testing done by a respectable publication. They did not do that. Under these circumstances I would conclude that either they do not have the data, or their internal data do not quite match the Autocar data.
Yes, this is something I am fairly certain about. Unfortunately for your case, there is a documented road test, from another US based respected car magazine, Car & Driver that uses rollout in their testing, indicating that McLaren F1 0 to 60mph time is 3.2s:
So the picture is quite clear now: Tesla had a legitimate reason to make claim about matching McLaren F1 performance, and that claim is a reason in itself that they switched to using rollout for P85D.
Quite frankly I am surprised at your insistence that Tesla somehow short changed you. By upgrading from 85D to P85D you've got a performance bargain of the lifetime, and you know it. Apparently great majority of Danish P85D owners have similar thoughts as they did not join the (very vocal) minority demanding the restitution.
As I stated before, as far as performance is concerned, the upgrade from 85D to P85D is remarkably similar to the upgrade from Audi S7 to Audi RS7 except that it is a whopping 3.27 times more expensive in Denmark ($78,376) than an upgrade from 85D to P85D ($24,000 per your previous posts). The same upgrade in US is 30% more expensive for Audi than for Tesla ($26K vs. $20K)
Denmark pricing:
Audi S7 - 1,738,187 DKK --> $260,335
Audi RS7 - 2,261,485 DKK --> $338,712
US pricing:
Audi S7 - $82,900
Audi RS7 - $108,900
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I am getting deja vu on the whole Mclaren issue:
AWDTsla posted a thread that showed in the only independent test of a customer owned McLaren F1, in the December 1997 issue Road and Track got 0-60 in 3.4 seconds and 11.6 quarter mile.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...91HP/page109?p=1109669&viewfull=1#post1109669
The 1994 issue that was linked previously, as well as the Autocar test that got 3.2 seconds (without rollout subtracted supposedly) was a test of the XP5 prototype, which McLaren has indicated has limiters removed. That car got 1/4 mile in 11.1. Probably 99% of the McLaren F1 numbers on the internet (as well as officially from McLaren) are quoted from that prototype.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...91HP/page110?p=1110761&viewfull=1#post1110761
I suspect no matter how many times you ask McLaren, they would stick to their guns. I'm pretty sure they probably got 0-60 in 3.2 from their XP5 prototype or they can make it so (given the limiters removed). Whether any customer car can achieve that (even with the best conditions and back in the 1990s) is another question. And the car is too old for the numbers to be re-verified and it does not benefit McLaren to push the issue or do any extra investigation (the people who came up with the numbers may not even be with the company anymore).
While MotorTrend's test was also of a pre-production P85D unit, many owners have easily achieved 0-60 in 3.1 with 1 foot rollout since then (unlike a McLaren there is no need for a pro driver). I highly doubt Tesla would lose a lawsuit on this claim given independent verification of the claim. It is entirely reasonable for Tesla and Elon to trust a US publication (being a US based company) when they say that Tesla has achieved what they claimed under the same conditions.
AWDTsla posted a thread that showed in the only independent test of a customer owned McLaren F1, in the December 1997 issue Road and Track got 0-60 in 3.4 seconds and 11.6 quarter mile.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...91HP/page109?p=1109669&viewfull=1#post1109669
The 1994 issue that was linked previously, as well as the Autocar test that got 3.2 seconds (without rollout subtracted supposedly) was a test of the XP5 prototype, which McLaren has indicated has limiters removed. That car got 1/4 mile in 11.1. Probably 99% of the McLaren F1 numbers on the internet (as well as officially from McLaren) are quoted from that prototype.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...91HP/page110?p=1110761&viewfull=1#post1110761
I suspect no matter how many times you ask McLaren, they would stick to their guns. I'm pretty sure they probably got 0-60 in 3.2 from their XP5 prototype or they can make it so (given the limiters removed). Whether any customer car can achieve that (even with the best conditions and back in the 1990s) is another question. And the car is too old for the numbers to be re-verified and it does not benefit McLaren to push the issue or do any extra investigation (the people who came up with the numbers may not even be with the company anymore).
While MotorTrend's test was also of a pre-production P85D unit, many owners have easily achieved 0-60 in 3.1 with 1 foot rollout since then (unlike a McLaren there is no need for a pro driver). I highly doubt Tesla would lose a lawsuit on this claim given independent verification of the claim. It is entirely reasonable for Tesla and Elon to trust a US publication (being a US based company) when they say that Tesla has achieved what they claimed under the same conditions.
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You choose to believe Car & Driver over Autosport and McLaren - I do not. In the 1994 article they say nothing about rollout and it is not clear how and where they tested it. But since you are writting e-mails ...
And in no way is a legitimate reason for Tesla to start using rollout, when not using on any of their other models including previous performance models
If I buy a 3ct diamond and it turns out to only be 2.8ct is still a nice diamond, but it is not 3ct and not what I paid for, can we agree on that? - I'm surprised it is that important to you that I accept less than I paid for.
On ice cars you pay 25% vat and then 180% registration tax in Denmark, that is why you get the big difference. Tesla being able to sell the P85D without registration tax of 180% does not give them card blance to claim whatever they want and then deliver different.
The Audi upgrade is nothing similar to 85D to P85D, with Audi you get what they sell you when it comes to performance! And on top of that you get a very different looking car. So in that aspect it is the Audi that is the bargin.
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I think the limiters that was removed was the rev limiter to set a world record top speed.
JER
Member
I'll just point out that the wording of the McLaren statement does suggest they could've been answering the wrong question:
Not that I doubt any more that Tesla have been spinning a narrative to hide a mistake, but this particular piece of evidence is ambiguous and needs some clarification.
From standstill? One-foot rollout also measures acceleration from standstill - it just means the clock starts counting after the specified distance has been travelled. They may have assumed you were talking about a rolling start, which is something else again.
Not that I doubt any more that Tesla have been spinning a narrative to hide a mistake, but this particular piece of evidence is ambiguous and needs some clarification.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
I'd like some clarification on this. What mistake? Because if it's rollout...I would disagree, and if it's the hp numbers, we don't have any idea how Tesla arrived at the figure.
I should think the most reasonable thing you could say is that ambiguity still exists with regard to Tesla's quoted performance characteristics of the P85D.
