Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[bonnie]

Lot of people in this thread busy telling everyone else what they ought to say. Just an observation from someone without skin in the game.

Another observation: Personally I've found conversations tend to go better when that's not happening. But then I'm not sure if having a good discussion about this is actually the goal.

 

[wk057]

People are allowed to disagree for ANY reason regardless of how YOU personally feel about it. How extraordinarily judgmental of you to decide what is valid reasoning or not. I'd venture a guess that there are many who think your reason for being upset is also not valid, but they at least have extended you the courtesy of not repeatedly disrespecting you. Might I also point out to you that you are just as guilty of 'rehashing off-topic nonsense' as anyone else you're complaining about.

You personally have repeatedly disrespected me (and others) on this topic, as have many others.

If someone feels my points are not valid, prove me wrong. Saying, "Oh but Tesla and Elon are great!" or "You should have known better than to trust those numbers!" or "You shouldn't be complaining!" or "Stop whining!" types of responses that litter these threads are not remotely helpful.

 

[FlasherZ]

Lot of people in this thread busy telling everyone else what they ought to say. Just an observation from someone without skin in the game.

Another observation: Personally I've found conversations tend to go better when that's not happening. But then I'm not sure if having a good discussion about this is actually the goal.

I agree, and I'll extend it - people telling everyone else what they ought to think.

I think those who feel as if they didn't get what they paid for should do what they feel they need to do to be happy, like Dr. Montgomery did. The stalemate we've reached here isn't going to accomplish anything more and minds are already made up.

 

[WarpedOne]

If someone feels my points are not valid, prove me wrong.

Oh, that is easy:

So, where is proof those motors are not capable of such output?

 

[rns-e]

Oh, that is easy:
View attachment 91086

So, where is proof those motors are not capable of such output?

He asked you to prove him wrong, which you think is easy and instead of doing just that you want him to prove tesla wrong? Is it backwards day today?

 

[hpham007]

So, where is proof those motors are not capable of such output?

Here you go, a "691" hp Tesla getting destroyed by a 562 hp Porsche...

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

 

[wk057]

He asked you to prove him wrong, which you think is easy and instead of doing just that you want him to prove tesla wrong? Is it backwards day today?

This whole topic has been bass ackwards. lol.

 

[dsm363]

Here you go, a "691" hp Tesla getting destroyed by a 562 hp Porsche...

Tesla Model S P85D vs Porsche Panamera Turbo S drag race - YouTube

Um. No. The Model S didn't even launch properly. How you screw up pushing your foot to the floor is beyond me but trying to launch with your foot on the break might be one reason.

 

[ev-enthusiast]

TBH kinda funny discussion here.

1. Every engine on this planet has a power rating depending on rpm.
2. In case you are lucky and could afford a car with more than only one engine, your car company needs to sum up this engine power somehow for different purposes (insurance, admission office, ...). And this sum is certainly not done by a "traditional"/"stupid mathematical" sum, just like with any hybrid powertrain that combines an ICE engine with a electrical engine, life is not that easy.
3. Please take a deap breath, step back and think about this whole "issue".
There are currently hundreds of refugees drowning in the Mediterranean see each week and some posts here complain about what? Please think about that for a second. In case there is really an issue, it is difficult for me to understand the emphasis some posts seem to put on this topic (are we talking about 0.5sec, what are the rounding errors errors here, what is the defined test environement?!).
4. I am sorry to say that this reminds me a bit of the Chinese Model S customer who smashed the windshield of his brand new Model S because it arrived late (link):

A similar solution could be applied here, just smash the windshield so that you don't have to use the car for a couple of days.
5. This is a free world. As long as it's legal you're allowed to do it, but others are as well allowed to form a view on that.
6. Have a nice day and enjoy your life everybody.

 

[Hybris]

I owned a P85+ for year. Did order the P85D without testdrive. Why? I wanted dualdrive, next gen seats, heated steering wheel, autopilot. Did I buy due to the 700 hp? Nope... Dont care. Did the 3.4S 0-100 kph matter? Yes. Do my car perform in the 3.4-3.5s range. Yes. That is my background and reasons why I changed car. Also explains why I dont care about a hp discussion. I knew that dualdrive would for sure accelerate way better than realwheel drive. Made sure I got 265 with PS2 as I know 245 and continentals will for sure be slower... Do have the sport suspension. I smoke anything 0-150 kph... Driving faster is illegal where I live. Overtake speed is way better than P85. Love the car and will upgrade to L mode. Not seen any software downgrade of performance. Oh and still not sern any proof of what the Danes are saying. Will never register and share my car info on a internetsite with unknown people behind... Funny discussion but bit really sure what the conclusion was? ;-)

 

[Andyw2100]

There is no doubt the combined hp number was misleading. I don't think a single person has said it wasn't. It does show that you can't assume anything. If a particular metric is vital to your $120,000 purchase you confirm it if there is any risk a slightly less rosy product can be delivered. If you bought a house would you have it inspected first or take the owners word on it? Yes, you shouldn't have to do this but is reality.

If I'm buying a $120,000 house, I have it inspected because there can be hidden flaws, and I'll have little recourse after the purchase is complete because it is understood that unless the seller purposefully hid a flaw, he or she bears no responsibility after the sale has been completed. It's a very different situation when purchasing a new car from a reputable car company. I have no reason in the world not to believe the specifications the company has published about their car. I don't need to take the car to a mechanic for inspection before delivery because since the car is new, if there are any hidden flaws that were not discovered before delivery, I trust that the manufacturer will correct them for me. There are also consumer protection laws to protect me from specifications that prove to be inaccurate. Personally, as a TSLA stockholder, and as a Tesla fan and supporter, I don't want to see anyone availing themselves of that protection, which is one of the reasons I've been advocating for Tesla to get out in front of this.

I find it incredibly ironic that some of the people supporting Tesla, including dsm363 in the post above, are essentially "victim shaming" and suggesting that it is our fault for not doing our due diligence before purchasing the car. These people--people who support Tesla--are suggesting not only that it is our fault, but that we should not have trusted Tesla! That was our mistake! We took at face value Tesla's specifications, without investigating them. Am I the only one who sees --THAT-- as ludicrous?

If Tesla had included in their specs that the car could fly, or that there was an underwater mode, then perhaps claims like those would have required some real scrutiny. But a claim of horsepower? Why in the world should we in any way question that, from a reputable company that we trust? The Tesla supporters suggesting that we shouldn't have are making an argument against trusting Tesla.

I think those who feel as if they didn't get what they paid for should do what they feel they need to do to be happy, like Dr. Montgomery did. The stalemate we've reached here isn't going to accomplish anything more and minds are already made up.

I am continuing to post in an effort to --PREVENT-- people from doing anything like what Dr. Montgomery did. If there is any sort of legal action over this, Tesla will lose. I'm not even talking about the merits of the case at that point. (I strongly, STRONGLY feel they will lose any case, but that's besides the point.) I'm talking now about image and public opinion and future sales. Anyone who cares about Tesla's future should be concerned about Tesla avoiding a class action suit on this. The Tesla supporters can talk all they want about the differences between motor power and horsepower and what Tesla really meant, but what do you think the public is going to understand and take away from the headlines? I'll tell you what. "Tesla misrepresents their cars, and can't be trusted." That's what the public perception will be if there is a class action suit, win, lose or draw. Tesla should do what they need to do to make sure there is no class action suit, or if one does happen, that they were out in front on the issue and can say, "Yes, we initially couldn't meet the originally advertised specifications, so we made things right by modifying the car after it was released, with an upgrade that now costs $10,000 on new cars."

If Tesla does this, they have largely insulated themselves from damage should the class action suit happen anyway. They have taken away much of the reason --FOR-- the class action suit, reducing the chance that it happens. And in the process, they generate boatloads of good will and good press. --AND IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!-- This really seems like a no-brainer.

So rather than doing as Dr. Montgomery did, I'm hoping that perhaps a letter or letters to Tesla, or threads like these will help Tesla reach the right decision on their own.

Don't think Tesla can afford to ... give away free Ludicrous updates...

And I don't see how they can afford not to.

 

[Hybris]

Nope not for special people only, but as you can see from the forum discussions, we don't need all kinds of discussions around the actual data and what we write or do not write to Tesla. So, as stated in the first post, IF you are not satisfied with your P85D, join us, provide your data if possible and then of course you may see our letters to Tesla Motors. If you don't have a problem, then you won't have a problem not seeing everything.
The more we are the better, and the more pressure we can apply, and we will apply pressure, believe me. This is not for fun guys.

Post the results on a public site so we can compare with our results. Dont care about any complaint letter. Show us the results. As many of us dont agree with your 3.8-4.0s to 100 kph statement or conspiracy that Tesla downgraded performance in April... Show us the proof and keep any complaints or other thing for yourself!

its looking like you are collecting members in your community to make a point...

 

[hpham007]

I owned a P85+ for year. Did order the P85D without testdrive. Why? I wanted dualdrive, next gen seats, heated steering wheel, autopilot. Did I buy due to the 700 hp? Nope... Dont care.

You listed attributes that were important to YOU. Would you care if dual drive was missing if it was advertised as having it? Maybe the 691 hp is an attribute someone else values. Can you see how the whole "I'm happy with what I got, you should be too" argument is invalid?

 

[wk057]

If I'm buying a $120,000 house, I have it inspected because there can be hidden flaws, and I'll have little recourse after the purchase is complete because it is understood that unless the seller purposefully hid a flaw, he or she bears no responsibility after the sale has been completed. It's a very different situation when purchasing a new car from a reputable car company. I have no reason in the world not to believe the specifications the company has published about their car. I don't need to take the car to a mechanic for inspection before delivery because since the car is new, if there are any hidden flaws that were not discovered before delivery, I trust that the manufacturer will correct them for me. There are also consumer protection laws to protect me from specifications that prove to be inaccurate. Personally, as a TSLA stockholder, and as a Tesla fan and supporter, I don't want to see anyone availing themselves of that protection, which is one of the reasons I've been advocating for Tesla to get out in front of this.

I find it incredibly ironic that some of the people supporting Tesla, including dsm363 in the post above, are essentially "victim shaming" and suggesting that it is our fault for not doing our due diligence before purchasing the car. These people--people who support Tesla--are suggesting not only that it is our fault, but that we should not have trusted Tesla! That was our mistake! We took at face value Tesla's specifications, without investigating them. Am I the only one who sees --THAT-- as ludicrous?

If Tesla had included in their specs that the car could fly, or that there was an underwater mode, then perhaps claims like those would have required some real scrutiny. But a claim of horsepower? Why in the world should we in any way question that, from a reputable company that we trust? The Tesla supporters suggesting that we shouldn't have are making an argument against trusting Tesla.





I am continuing to post in an effort to --PREVENT-- people from doing anything like what Dr. Montgomery did. If there is any sort of legal action over this, Tesla will lose. I'm not even talking about the merits of the case at that point. (I strongly, STRONGLY feel they will lose any case, but that's besides the point.) I'm talking now about image and public opinion and future sales. Anyone who cares about Tesla's future should be concerned about Tesla avoiding a class action suit on this. The Tesla supporters can talk all they want about the differences between motor power and horsepower and what Tesla really meant, but what do you think the public is going to understand and take away from the headlines? I'll tell you what. "Tesla misrepresents their cars, and can't be trusted." That's what the public perception will be if there is a class action suit, win, lose or draw. Tesla should do what they need to do to make sure there is no class action suit, or if one does happen, that they were out in front on the issue and can say, "Yes, we initially couldn't meet the originally advertised specifications, so we made things right by modifying the car after it was released, with an upgrade that now costs $10,000 on new cars."

If Tesla does this, they have largely insulated themselves from damage should the class action suit happen anyway. They have taken away much of the reason --FOR-- the class action suit, reducing the chance that it happens. And in the process, they generate boatloads of good will and good press. --AND IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!-- This really seems like a no-brainer.

So rather than doing as Dr. Montgomery did, I'm hoping that perhaps a letter or letters to Tesla, or threads like these will help Tesla reach the right decision on their own.


And I don't see how they can afford not to.

Definitely agree, and I have posted similar thoughts on this before regarding the folks who are supporters yet are saying we shouldn't have trusted Tesla's numbers. I find it a bit hypocritical, personally, but whatever.

I too have also been a proponent of Tesla doing something to nip this in the bud before it becomes a legal issue. Every day they do not take some kind of action is another day they're playing Russian Roulette with a lawsuit coming from somewhere on the matter.

I'm not convinced a free Ludicrous update is the answer, though it would probably ease the pain a bit *if* the specs actually hold up this time. However, I'm not convinced that even with the Ludicrous update that we're going to see 691 HP from the motors, so this may not even be a real solution to this even though it would definitely go a long way toward regaining some lost trust and goodwill.

 

[Andyw2100]

I'm not convinced a free Ludicrous update is the answer, though it would probably ease the pain a bit *if* the specs actually hold up this time. However, I'm not convinced that even with the Ludicrous update that we're going to see 691 HP from the motors, so this may not even be a real solution to this even though it would definitely go a long way toward regaining some lost trust and goodwill.

I'm certainly not convinced the Ludicrous update will meet specs, thanks in large part to the research and posts from you and others. But I think unless it turns out to somehow make the car worse, providing the Ludicrous update for free does go a long way towards regaining some lost trust and goodwill, because it demonstrates that Tesla is doing what they can to make things right. We know that the Ludicrous update represents their best engineering effort. We know that they intend to sell this as a $10,000 option on new cars. It definitely has value. So in my mind, giving us that value says, "We care!" even if it only gets the P85Ds to 660 or 670 HP.

Additionally, even if it doesn't get the cars to the originally advertised 691 HP, as long as it gets them a lot closer, should there be a lawsuit, it really still does help with the public perception. It's a lot harder to dislike a company that just gave away a $10,000 upgrade, and a lot easier to write off as "whiners" the customers suing over what now amounts to just a few missing horsepower. I see it as a completely different game with respect to public perception. Sure, it will be even better if the Ludicrous update delivers the specs it is claiming to, or at least the originally stated 691 HP, but as long as it gets close, I still think providing it free is a home run for Tesla.

Edit: I just had another thought. There has been some discussion of the huge margin Tesla has on this upgrade. Let's assume, for purposes of this discussion, that that is correct, and the parts cost them about $1000. Providing the upgrade for free could conceivably be a money-maker for Tesla, even without the good-will benefits, purely on a dollars and cents basis, if the publicity about the upgrade causes more Model S buyers to spring for the update than would not have otherwise. Leaving out the labor costs, and using the $1000 figure, if one new Model S buyer that would not have gone for the upgrade now does for every 8 free upgrades provided, Tesla is ahead of the game. This may not be the reason to provide the Ludicrous upgrade for free, but it could be one additional reason to consider doing it.

 

[rns-e]

You listed attributes that were important to YOU. Would you care if dual drive was missing if it was advertised as having it? Maybe the 691 hp is an attribute someone else values. Can you see how the whole "I'm happy with what I got, you should be too" argument is invalid?

Sadly I don't think he does. But from his post the acceleration seams important to him, since he is also getting the ludicrous. If it is not, he should have gotten the 85D as it has all the things he values and is still damn quick.

As he states, his P85D is performing, which is great. Then he can either help by sharing his data, so we can identify what is wrong with our cars or he can keep at it and not listing to what we are saying.

I'm afraid it will be the later.

 

[wk057]

I'm certainly not convinced the Ludicrous update will meet specs, thanks in large part to the research and posts from you and others. But I think unless it turns out to somehow make the car worse, providing the Ludicrous update for free does go a long way towards regaining some lost trust and goodwill, because it demonstrates that Tesla is doing what they can to make things right. We know that the Ludicrous update represents their best engineering effort. We know that they intend to sell this as a $10,000 option on new cars. It definitely has value. So in my mind, giving us that value says, "We care!" even if it only gets the P85Ds to 660 or 670 HP.

Additionally, even if it doesn't get the cars to the originally advertised 691 HP, as long as it gets them a lot closer, should there be a lawsuit, it really still does help with the public perception. It's a lot harder to dislike a company that just gave away a $10,000 upgrade, and a lot easier to write off as "whiners" the customers suing over what now amounts to just a few missing horsepower. I see it as a completely different game with respect to public perception. Sure, it will be even better if the Ludicrous update delivers the specs it is claiming to, or at least the originally stated 691 HP, but as long as it gets close, I still think providing it free is a home run for Tesla.

Exactly correct.

If the Ludicrous mode update gets the car to output something like 480kW then thats only ~7% less than the 691 HP number and I admittedly would have no further complaint on this issue, personally. I'm not convinced it gets there, but it's definitely possible. Need a 100% SoC launch video (decent quality) of a P90DL's dash to have more data.

In any case, I'm not likely to spend $5k+labor (or more) on it regardless.

Edit/Side note: I don't understand why I can't give Andy rep anymore... been quite a while and quite a lot of other rep given since. err

 

[rns-e]

I'm certainly not convinced the Ludicrous update will meet specs, thanks in large part to the research and posts from you and others. But I think unless it turns out to somehow make the car worse, providing the Ludicrous update for free does go a long way towards regaining some lost trust and goodwill, because it demonstrates that Tesla is doing what they can to make things right. We know that the Ludicrous update represents their best engineering effort. We know that they intend to sell this as a $10,000 option on new cars. It definitely has value. So in my mind, giving us that value says, "We care!" even if it only gets the P85Ds to 660 or 670 HP.

Additionally, even if it doesn't get the cars to the originally advertised 691 HP, as long as it gets them a lot closer, should there be a lawsuit, it really still does help with the public perception. It's a lot harder to dislike a company that just gave away a $10,000 upgrade, and a lot easier to write off as "whiners" the customers suing over what now amounts to just a few missing horsepower. I see it as a completely different game with respect to public perception. Sure, it will be even better if the Ludicrous update delivers the specs it is claiming to, or at least the originally stated 691 HP, but as long as it gets close, I still think providing it free is a home run for Tesla.

Totally agree

 

[Vuvision]

*sigh* I don't know why I bother sometimes. I really don't.

If anything I've lost a bit more faith in humanity reading the complete nonsense people on this forum have come up with to defend Tesla on this issue. I feel the need to point out that Tesla themselves hasn't even attempted to defend this at all and completely sidesteps the question at every turn so far despite dozens of emails, calls, and other contact. At no point has Tesla taken the position, with me or anyone else that I can find info about, that the "motor power" isn't an achievable power output on the vehicle as spec'd. This is something defenders here have pulled out of their.... well you get the idea.

As far as I'm concerned, unless some time around October '14 the definition of "horsepower" changed from 745.699872 watts or 550 foot-pounds per second to something like 575 watts instead, and I didn't get the memo, I'm pretty sure the number given my Tesla for the car does not match the vehicle's output. That's really all there is to this. There is nothing I can do with this car as it was sold to me to make it output the advertised horsepower. If I take the drive train components and hook them directly to a dynometer the car will still never put out the rated power or anything close to it. Tesla basically acknowledged this with the removal of the 691 number, then further confirmed it with the release of Ludicrous mode hardware updates (that have yet to materialize for existing owners). It doesn't get much clearer than this.

Everything about the P85D has been "wait for this" or "wait for that." Autopilot? Still waiting. Advertised range? Waited months after delivery to get the ~89% of advertised range I get today. Next-gen seats that were paid for? Waited many months to finally receive them. Horsepower? Oh, you want me to pay more now just to get closer to what I already paid for?

Honestly, everything about the P85D aside from the increase in power from 0-40 MPH has been a huge disappointment and nothing like it was sold to be.

To those of you who bought 2014 P85Ds and feel the same, it would be nice to get a little more public support on this.

To those of you who bought 2014 P85Ds and are, for whatever reason, ignoring this and other issues... *scratches head*

To those of you who do not even own the car and are continually chiming in with uselessness against those of us who have the vehicle... I have a few four letter words for you that would probably end up as *'s.

But anyway, I'm done. It's obvious nothing anyone says is going to stop some people from having to have the last word on this issue in defense of Tesla. This thread and others like it have been one merry-go-round after another. The people who realize they didn't get what they pay for posting facts describing this and the unsolicited Tesla defenders having to reply to every single post with non-information trying to make us sound like we're crazy to expect what was advertised.

The only person so far that has even come close to making a valid point on the opposing side of this issue is @stopcrazypp who at least tries to put together evidence and data that appears to support the opposing view. While, no offense intended, most of it is unrelated directly to the issue and doesn't really prove anything, at least it's an attempt at using real data and available information to defend the position aside from people just saying that we're "whining and bitching" about a very real problem. So, kudos to you, stopcrazypp, for being constructive.

+1 ... well said! As a P85D owner, I'm amazed by the nonsensical mundane comments from the none P85D owners who have no skin in the game trolling this thread. I've been a strong advocate for Tesla and have referred two friends to buy Tesla, P85 and P85D. That said, with Elon/Tesla recent revising of the original spec regarding the P85D and the delayed (over 8 months & counting for me) of delivering Auto Pilot left a sour taste in me... bloom is off the rose.

 

[darthy001]

I find it incredibly ironic that some of the people supporting Tesla, including dsm363 in the post above, are essentially "victim shaming" and suggesting that it is our fault for not doing our due diligence before purchasing the car. These people--people who support Tesla--are suggesting not only that it is our fault, but that we should not have trusted Tesla! That was our mistake! We took at face value Tesla's specifications, without investigating them. Am I the only one who sees --THAT-- as ludicrous?

You are not alone my friend on this one Actually one of the reasons I keep posting here is that I cannot believe that supporters, investors and those who are both, and thus should have Teslas best interest in hand here, actually end up blaiming the customer keeping the company alive for the poor marketing effort put forth by Tesla. I find that absolutely puzzling!