Can NoA be disabled with FSD enabled with FSD 11?

[srs5694]

Yesterday I received the update to 2022.45.11 (with FSD 11.3.2) on my Model 3. I've had the FSD beta for over a year, but I guess this is the fabled "single-stack" implementation. On my way to work this morning, I enabled Autopilot on the highway and was horrified when the thing auto-signaled a lane change I didn't want to make. I should note that I had my defaults set to not automatically engage Navigate on Autopilot; and when I did manually engage NoA, I had it set to require my manual intervention before it actually signaled lane changes, much less made them. This is because I've always found NoA's judgments about when to make lane changes rather poor; I prefer to make those decisions myself.

Well, as I said, my car ignored those previous settings this morning. When I got to work, I looked over my settings, and as far as I can tell, there's now no way to get my old feature mix back except to completely disable FSD. To be sure, I've not been a big fan of FSD; I find that it drives erratically and unsafely in too many situations, so I've rarely used it. Note that word rarely, though; there are a few situations when I'll use it. Now, though, it seems I have to either give up those few times when I'd use FSD or give up my ability to use non-NoA Autopilot. Am I missing something?

If I'm not, then this goes up there with Tesla hiding window-defogging controls in a submenu, a bit over a year ago, as a colossal step backwards. (I live in New England, where easy access to window defogging controls is vitally important.) Software updates are supposed to improve the car, not make it worse.

 

[Acisplat]

Set up a 2nd profile on the car that doesn't have FSD Beta enabled and switch to that when you want to use just NoA
FSD on highway doesn't currently allow any customization except chill, average, and assertive but some of the old NoA customization should return when single stack goes to production branch.

 

[srs5694]

Set up a 2nd profile on the car that doesn't have FSD Beta enabled and switch to that when you want to use just NoA

Switching between profiles while driving is not an acceptable solution.

 

[Acisplat]

Switching between profiles while driving is not an acceptable solution.

That's all Tesla is giving you for now, and probably will change when single stack moves to production.

 

[KArnold]

Switching between profiles while driving is not an acceptable solution.

Why?

 

[srs5694]

Why?

I shouldn't have to explain this, but: Because it requires taking my eyes off the road to interact with the touch-screen, in a fairly complex way, which is both annoying and potentially dangerous. Because it makes the task of using the system the way I'd been doing harder. Because it's what's known in the computer industry as an ugly hack to work around reduced functionality.

 

[Acisplat]

It's my guess that there is a lack of customization for FSD because their testing methodology needs a baseline to work off of to get FSD stable, and the more variables that are added to it will skew their data and setback their path. When Tesla deems it stable, then I'm guessing they will add back NoA customizations like following distance and lane change confirmation.

 

[JHCCAZ]

Yesterday I received the update to 2022.45.11 (with FSD 11.3.2) on my Model 3. I've had the FSD beta for over a year, but I guess this is the fabled "single-stack" implementation. On my way to work this morning, I enabled Autopilot on the highway and was horrified when the thing auto-signaled a lane change I didn't want to make. I should note that I had my defaults set to not automatically engage Navigate on Autopilot; and when I did manually engage NoA, I had it set to require my manual intervention before it actually signaled lane changes, much less made them. This is because I've always found NoA's judgments about when to make lane changes rather poor; I prefer to make those decisions myself.

Well, as I said, my car ignored those previous settings this morning. When I got to work, I looked over my settings, and as far as I can tell, there's now no way to get my old feature mix back except to completely disable FSD. To be sure, I've not been a big fan of FSD; I find that it drives erratically and unsafely in too many situations, so I've rarely used it. Note that word rarely, though; there are a few situations when I'll use it. Now, though, it seems I have to either give up those few times when I'd use FSD or give up my ability to use non-NoA Autopilot. Am I missing something?

If I'm not, then this goes up there with Tesla hiding window-defogging controls in a submenu, a bit over a year ago, as a colossal step backwards. (I live in New England, where easy access to window defogging controls is vitally important.) Software updates are supposed to improve the car, not make it worse.

First I should say that I'm sympathetic with your annoyance at unrequested lane changes, so I've been looking at this issue carefully.

I don't have v11.3.2 just yet, but from reading and watching the videos, I believe that the unified city/highway stack now has two controls that should mitigate or eliminate this problem:
The basic FSD control for aggressiveness of lane changes as well as following distance and other behaviors is the

Chill / Average/Assertive​

setting. A similar control existed before in FSD beta, but according to the release notes, this new one is supposed to have more differentiation across the three settings.

The second major control is more specific, and sounds like exactly what I've been calling for:

Minimal Lane Changes​

This one is supposed to suppress lane changes that are not clearly required for navigation routing. I've been wanting exactly such a control to avoid the system second-guessing me, and to avoid its propensity to want to scoot around even a short stack of leading cars when waiting or approaching a traffic light. I'm not convinced that it will suppress some of the confused phantom blinks that come and go in FSDb, as some of those may be a consequence of incorrect turn- versus through-lane identification. However, those traffic light in turn lane issues shouldn't be much of a problem on the highway.

The downside of the new Minimal Lane Changes toggle is that you have to activate it for each drive - it resets to Off at the conclusion. I'm not sure why this is, but if it works out and gets much use, I imagine that Tesla would be willing to allow drivers to set it as a persistent control preference.

I believe that even while in this mode, you should be able to initiate an on-demand auto lane change at any time, using the full-press turn signal activation.

I'd be interested to know if you have tried these controls, particularly the Minimal Lane Changes toggle, and whether these do or do not solve your complaint.

 

[tdiggity]

The downside of the new Minimal Lane Changes toggle is that you have to activate it for each drive - it resets to Off at the conclusion. I'm not sure why this is, but if it works out and gets much use, I imagine that Tesla would be willing to allow drivers to set it as a persistent control preference.

I think this setting sticks if you set it in the Settings --> Autopilot menu. It can be changed on the fly while driving via the jog dial left/right that switched the follow distance, but will revert to whatever is in the Settings menu on the next drive.

 

[JHCCAZ]

I think this setting sticks if you set it in the Settings --> Autopilot menu. It can be changed on the fly while driving via the jog dial left/right that switched the follow distance, but will revert to whatever is in the Settings menu on the next drive.

I think what you said is true of the Chill / Average / Aggressive setting - persistent and controlled by the jog wheel that used to control following distance. But according to everything I've read so far, the new Minimal Lane Changes toggle is non-persistent, and I don't think it's accessible from the steering wheel controls.

 

[tdiggity]

I think what you said is true of the Chill / Average / Aggressive setting - persistent and controlled by the jog wheel that used to control following distance. But according to everything I've read so far, the new Minimal Lane Changes toggle is non-persistent, and I don't think it's accessible from the steering wheel controls.

When using the jog dial left/right to change Chill / Avg/ Aggressive, a menu is brought up ont he screen in the upper right - that menu also has the minimize lane change setting you can toggle on/off. The window disappears pretty quickly.

When I was out today, I recall minimize lane changes to be set for each of my drives and i toggled it off to see how it would behave, but I will double check tomorrow since I was mainly focused on not doing dumb(er) things in traffic

 

[JHCCAZ]

When using the jog dial left/right to change Chill / Avg/ Aggressive, a menu is brought up ont he screen in the upper right - that menu also has the minimize lane change setting you can toggle on/off. The window disappears pretty quickly.

When I was out today, I recall minimize lane changes to be set for each of my drives and i toggled it off to see how it would behave, but I will double check tomorrow since I was mainly focused on not doing dumb(er) things in traffic

Thanks for that info. It's encouraging that there is the pop-up window that comes up with the jog dial control; I didn't know about that one.

While we're on the topic of the new autopilot controls, can you clarify the (apparently new) three step TACC/ Autosteer/ FSD operation? Is this true? Is there now a single / dual / triple half-press of the stalk, with associated chimes? What exactly does Autosteer do and not do in city and highway driving? Sorry if I misunderstood this but I was reading about it today. I don't know how much longer before I'll get the download myself, so I'm sorry to bug you with these questions!

In any case, I'll be interested to hear more about your assessment of how this new Minimal control works, as it's one of those rare instances when Tesla added something new that I really had been wanting.

 

[tdiggity]

Thanks for that info. It's encouraging that there is the pop-up window that comes up with the jog dial control; I didn't know about that one.

While we're on the topic of the new autopilot controls, can you clarify the (apparently new) three step TACC/ Autosteer/ FSD operation? Is this true? Is there now a single / dual / triple half-press of the stalk, with associated chimes? What exactly does Autosteer do and not do in city and highway driving? Sorry if I misunderstood this but I was reading about it today. I don't know how much longer before I'll get the download myself, so I'm sorry to bug you with these questions!

In any case, I'll be interested to hear more about your assessment of how this new Minimal control works, as it's one of those rare instances when Tesla added something new that I really had been wanting.

I saw those three options, but have not played with them yet. I'll check tomorrow. I have a feeling it will enable whatever is selected via the dual down motion that activates AP/FSDb (and would get rid of a single down motion for TACC) - making it more clear to people what you're doing and reducing the number of subtly different chimes.

 

[JHCCAZ]

I saw those three options, but have not played with them yet. I'll check tomorrow. I have a feeling it will enable whatever is selected via the dual down motion that activates AP/FSDb (and would get rid of a single down motion for TACC) - making it more clear to people what you're doing and reducing the number of subtly different chimes.

That makes sense, and certainly there is already the issue of "mode confusion" with just the two TACC and alAutosteer modes.

However, I often like to take over the steering but still have the operational features of TACC to handle the traffic light and traffic jam control. Then sometimes I also would like to override the nav route and have the car just follow the current road with Autosteer.

So I would probably use all three if readily available without touch screen manipulation, but again not wanting to be confused about which mode is active. (The Cheerio-sized pastel blue or gray steering wheel icon is not my kind of mode indicator.)

 

[240vPlug]

Look I totally understand the lane change preference. I feel the same. Unfortunately, this is a beta so the only options for now are to either use a seperate profile to switch beta on/off, or to opt out of the beta completely.

I suspect many will have similar complaints about the lane changes.

 

[JulienW]

While it is still an L2 Beta FSD does = Full Self Driving. It can't be FSD unless it is making the decisions.

 

[tdiggity]

That makes sense, and certainly there is already the issue of "mode confusion" with just the two TACC and alAutosteer modes.

However, I often like to take over the steering but still have the operational features of TACC to handle the traffic light and traffic jam control. Then sometimes I also would like to override the nav route and have the car just follow the current road with Autosteer.

So I would probably use all three if readily available without touch screen manipulation, but again not wanting to be confused about which mode is active. (The Cheerio-sized pastel blue or gray steering wheel icon is not my kind of mode indicator.)

Ok, so got a few assumptions wrong.

Minimize Lane changes does revert back after each drive:

The three new options for TACC / Auto-steer (beta) / FUll Self-Driving (Beta) is a bad UI element. It should be a tab, not a button, because it changes all the options after. Here are the screenshots of the options:

I suspect this screen was rushed, and they'll make it more intuitive with time (lol). I also think they will have an option to keep Minimize lane changes on all the time like they did with NoA, someday.

 

[JulienW]

......The three new options for TACC / Auto-steer (beta) / FUll Self-Driving (Beta) is a bad UI element. It should be a tab, not a button, because it changes all the options after. Here are the screenshots of the options:....

It looks correct to me. The removed options (NoA, FSD Visualizations and Traffic Sign & Stop Sign) are not applicable to FSD Beta.

 

[kriskros91]

I shouldn't have to explain this, but: Because it requires taking my eyes off the road to interact with the touch-screen, in a fairly complex way, which is both annoying and potentially dangerous. Because it makes the task of using the system the way I'd been doing harder. Because it's what's known in the computer industry as an ugly hack to work around reduced functionality.

I think the solution you are looking for is making the Autosteer (beta) option your primary profile and keeping fsd when you "rarely" plan to use FSD. If you don't enjoy or find FSD useful (yet) then just keep it doing what you've been doing before via these settings. Then change the profile to an FSD active profile when you feel like testing it. It's ok to have a personal opinion on this since it's your car and you paid money for it and FSD but the programmers also want it to start taking over control from the human driver, ostensibly to improve overall safety (though I agree that lane choices can be frustrating when it deviates with what we want or are comfortable with).

 

[TjckTock]

The problem with Autosteer is you are limited to only 5 over the posted limit on surface streets which, where I live, makes me a hazard to myself and other drivers. So the only driver assistance feature I have that works is TACC. IMO, Tesla needs to increase the limit to at least +9. Then it will be comparable to what other automobile manufacturers offer. I also think Tesla needs to add a "lane change confirmation" option to FSDb if they want more participation. As it is, I try each update once hoping it is fixed and then go back to TACC-only until the next update.