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I'm not sure what 'rules' you are talking about, but according to the members here, they have definitely been charged for products that have not been shipped or delivered (for many months).

The 'rules', as you put it, are the regulations that you, the merchant and each of your banks agree to before using or accepting a credit card payment (you know, all the stuff you didn't read when you signed up for a credit card). The merchant can charge you for a product that isn't delivered, but it's against the credit card regulations to charge before shipping unless you agree to it and even then you'll win a charge back. In fact, if the merchant gets enough charge backs their acquiring bank will shut them off from accepting credit cards.

The details are here for MasterCard on page 136 (they are similar for Visa) : https://www.mastercard.us/content/d...es/transaction-processing-rules-june-2016.pdf

7. If the products or services purchased are not available at time of the Transaction, the Merchant must inform the Cardholder and obtain the Cardholder’s agreement to a delayed delivery (specifying the anticipated delivery date) before proceeding with the Transaction.

8. The Merchant must advise the Cardholder if the products or services ordered will not be delivered within the time frame originally disclosed to and agreed with the Cardholder. The Cardholder must be notified of the new anticipated delivery timeframe and given an opportunity to cancel the Transaction



Chargeback process: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/downl...-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf
 
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Well documented post! I will confess to not reading the 300+ combined pages. But I think both of the requirements you reference are met. The merchant has the agreement of the customer.

I think everyone can agree the customer has legal recourse...but the real question that you can probably help answer is as follows: At what point will the bank / cc company consider the situation to be too far in the past to assist the customer with recovering their funds? An earlier post referenced 90 days...but maybe 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

Perhaps the internet detectives can find out more inside information on this company...but let's say there have been 4 orders @ $8k each. It's not like $32,000 is just sitting in the bank account of ESE incorporated, waiting to be withdrawn by the cc issuing bank. ESE has used that money for something. All we have are some really confusing pictures showing an autoclave with a Photoshopped logo, two guys with a 20 year-old 5axis, and perhaps the most baffling image of all: A carbon wheel, sitting inside said 5axis, next to a half-wheel shaped chunk of aluminum. I've starred at that image for 10 minutes trying to imagine what the hell could be going on there. It's part of the tooling?..still sitting there among the chips, but the finished wheel is already complete? I can't come up with any reasonable answer.

Merchant agreements are great legal docs...the bank has the vendor signed up to accept whatever they decide is correct...The customer has also signed up to whatever the bank decides. But the reality is this: if the money is gone (i.e. not effortless for the bank to recover with a little paperwork threat and ETF magic), they are going to shrug their shoulders and whip out another nice PDF that explains a year after the customer was charged for a product that they agreed would not be shipped immediately, said customer is very likely S.O.L.

13517669_619330941555120_3759089567059177340_o.jpg
 
Well documented post! I will confess to not reading the 300+ combined pages. But I think both of the requirements you reference are met. The merchant has the agreement of the customer.

I think everyone can agree the customer has legal recourse...but the real question that you can probably help answer is as follows: At what point will the bank / cc company consider the situation to be too far in the past to assist the customer with recovering their funds? An earlier post referenced 90 days...but maybe 6 months? 1 year? 10 years?

Perhaps the internet detectives can find out more inside information on this company...but let's say there have been 4 orders @ $8k each. It's not like $32,000 is just sitting in the bank account of ESE incorporated, waiting to be withdrawn by the cc issuing bank. ESE has used that money for something. All we have are some really confusing pictures showing an autoclave with a Photoshopped logo, two guys with a 20 year-old 5axis, and perhaps the most baffling image of all: A carbon wheel, sitting inside said 5axis, next to a half-wheel shaped chunk of aluminum. I've starred at that image for 10 minutes trying to imagine what the hell could be going on there. It's part of the tooling?..still sitting there among the chips, but the finished wheel is already complete? I can't come up with any reasonable answer.

Merchant agreements are great legal docs...the bank has the vendor signed up to accept whatever they decide is correct...The customer has also signed up to whatever the bank decides. But the reality is this: if the money is gone (i.e. not effortless for the bank to recover with a little paperwork threat and ETF magic), they are going to shrug their shoulders and whip out another nice PDF that explains a year after the customer was charged for a product that they agreed would not be shipped immediately, said customer is very likely S.O.L.

13517669_619330941555120_3759089567059177340_o.jpg
I don't really care what people do with this merchant. I'm trying to explain your rights as a consumer using a credit card.

Both banks (your issuing bank and the merchants acquiring bank) are providing each of you a loan. Current card not present credit card transactions heavily favor the consumer and the merchant eats almost all of the risk (the banks pass it to them). The merchant passes their risk back to the consumer through higher prices. If the consumer or the merchant cannot pay, their bank has to.

As for what recourse they have, since the merchant still hasn't shipped the product, I don't think there is a statute of limitations, but I'm not positive. By the sound of this thread it's not clear that this has been met:

8. The Merchant must advise the Cardholder if the products or services ordered will not be delivered within the time frame originally disclosed to and agreed with the Cardholder. The Cardholder must be notified of the new anticipated delivery timeframe and given an opportunity to cancel the Transaction

On a side note, new chip and pin transactions push the risk from the merchant to the consumer. Use swipe transactions for whatever you can for as long as you can; you're still paying the same fees and have pretty much no risk. NEVER using your debit card/pin... no value there at all and complete risk to you for the transaction and fraud... as long as you pay your credit card off monthly.
 
A simple "I don't know" would have been fine, Soccerman. More reading, less typing.

Fortunately, @Xenoilphobe, and/or any client does not need to worry about fraud as they may contact me directly for this type of resolution if a return is truly desired. We are extremely grateful for everyone's patience and we thank you all once again for supporting and believing throughout our E1 wheel release.

This was only 2 pages back...if you go 3 pages back, you can read buyers discussion of their credit card policy. Sounds like 90 days was the consensus. As I said, they have an open and shut legal case. But, so what? If ESE doesn't deliver, bringing suit for $8k would just be throwing good money after bad.


Back to the actual topic! Anyone figure that picture out? :confused:

There was a recent update indicating that the wheels are produced and were sent for inspection. Any customer inquiry since then?
 
The credit card policies are Visa's, Master Card's etc. The point of this is that anyone who has ordered a set of rims and not yet received them can call the company and ask for a refund. If the company does not comply, they can file a chargeback and get their money back as soon as it's processed (days).

The information you provided is wrong and people should know their rights as a consumer.
 
The credit card policies are Visa's, Master Card's etc. The point of this is that anyone who has ordered a set of rims and not yet received them can call the company and ask for a refund. If the company does not comply, they can file a chargeback and get their money back as soon as it's processed (days).

The information you provided is wrong and people should know their rights as a consumer.

Stick around! I suspect we will get to see if you are correct.
 
Hello All,

As delivery dates get closer and anticipation grows, we have decided to add an additional method of communication for our customers, allowing us to easily give you company updates, and to answer any questions you may have.

With this in mind, here is the latest news from our factory:


· Our engineering staff has put our wheels through rigorous in-house structural testing. The first round of testing surpassed the necessary wheel standards to be road-safe. However, we have decided to take things a few steps further. Our engineers identified opportunities to further optimize the carbon fiber ply placements to further strengthen the wheels without adding any additional weight. Our goal is to deliver wheels with the highest strength to weight ratio of any wheel currently available in the market – An 11lb wheel that is SAE tested to the 3,850lb maximum axle load rating of a Telsa Model X!



· We are already manufacturing wheels with the updated carbon fiber ply placement. We will then send wheels to an independent lab to carry out the SAE testing and confirm the 3,850lb maximum axle load rating of our wheels.


· Our factory continues to grow, just this week we added two more employees to make wheels. We are consistently manufacturing wheels, and new tool sizes for the various orders that are being made every week. Several wheels are now being post-processed, hub placement, clear coated, etc. Photos coming soon!


· Specific wheel orders will be packaged, ready for shipment when we get final lab confirmation. Costumers that have ordered just one wheel (that will not be placed on a car) will be receiving their orders first. All wheels intended for use on cars will not ship until independent lab results are received.


· We expect deliveries to begin during August and ramp up during the month of September. As I get more information on your specific orders, I will be contacting you directly.



In other news at ESE, due to the high demand of our E1 wheel we will soon be increasing its sale price. Our post launch price will still beat our competitor by a nice amount, and be unbeatable value considering our premium wheels are made to the highest standards of quality and have the highest strength to weight of any wheel. We will formally announce the price increase on our website, due to take effect after deliveries begin.


We are also re-launching our ESE Carbon website. It should be up and running within the next month or so, so keep an eye out for our new look!


Regarding the Tesla Motors Club forum, I will do my best to respond promptly to any inquiries and as always, I may be reached directly by email or phone. Thank you all for your patience, enthusiasm and involvement during our E1 Series carbon fiber composite wheel release!

Please, please update us. How it the testing going and when will the wheels ship? Inquiring minds want to know. We're in the dark yet again.
 
Please, please update us. How it the testing going and when will the wheels ship? Inquiring minds want to know. We're in the dark yet again.

Remember, there were going to be new lines of communication. Was that ball ever dropped by ESE. Now Victor is not answering emails, phone calls, or text messages. Not good. Let's speculate that he's on vacation. He has no back up?
 
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Who still has cash exposed?

I'm on the hook for 8 grand. I was one who thought I was paying half the price for my 4K deposit but was charged the full 8K amount. I suspect we buyers were a major source of capital to fund this operation.

I'm going to pay a personal visit to my bank on Friday to see the extent of my exposure.

Maybe we should organize a group visit to ESE's Miami headquarters to confront the owners. I think Victor's taking his orders from the CEO -- that's where the responsibility lies.