CCS for Model 3 in North America

[darth_vad3r]

I'm really on the fence about buying the CHAdeMO adapter. It was noted earlier in the thread that there is no technical barrier to implementing a small passive adapter for CCS on the Model 3... I like the idea of smaller and cheaper ($271 AU), with higher power capability to boot!

Being where you are, with all the CCS/CHAdeMO that seem to be at BC rest areas, I'd get the CHAdeMO now if you can make use of it, and then maybe sell it (possibly MUCH) later when (if) a CCS adapter comes out. Even if you take a big hit, it might pay for the whole CCS.

 

[davewill]

I'm really on the fence about buying the CHAdeMO adapter. It was noted earlier in the thread that there is no technical barrier to implementing a small passive adapter for CCS on the Model 3... I like the idea of smaller and cheaper ($271 AU), with higher power capability to boot!

No technical barrier that we know of. Besides, the CHAdeMO adapter just needed software tweaks, but it took Tesla over 2 years to get it working on Model 3...basically they waited until they HAD to do it for the Japanese market. There's nothing to say that they will EVER feel the need to do a CCS adapter for the non-EU Tesla connector. If I were you I would make my decision strictly on whether the CHAdeMO adapter is a good value for you now, and not think in terms of a CCS adapter coming out any time soon.

 

[outdoors]

I were you I would make my decision strictly on whether the CHAdeMO adapter is a good value for you now, and not think in terms of a CCS adapter coming out any time soon.

Exactly the way I approached it. Never saw one in person. Actually about half the size I thought it would be. Satisfied, and just another adapter in the toolbox.

 

[ElectricEel]

My fellow Teslites, can we come together Twitter blast Elon and email Tesla, for a North America CCS adapter? This isn't one of those useless requests as it will make tesla money with every CCS sold.

After seeing the chademo speeds for the model 3. I am and I know many others are horribly let down. Given the speeds of CCS!

It's time we finally make a request together. Everyone in the situation wins.

 

[Rocky_H]

After seeing the chademo speeds for the model 3. I am and I know many others are horribly let down. Given the speeds of CCS!

That came as a surprise? We've known the adapter can only do about 45kW for years. "meets expectations"

 

[ElectricEel]

That came as a surprise? We've known the adapter can only do about 45kW for years. "meets expectations"

Nah man, 50kW is not bad at all. But some stations are getting far less than that. But there's is more, there's only one chademo for 7 CCS...!?

It's not about speed, it's about Tesla as we all damn know has an adapter for North America but for some unknown reason wants to drag there feet on something we actually need. As superchargers are getting overwhelmed with people.

 

[Zoomit]

Speaking of expectations, the theorized and hoped for North American CCS1 adapter will likely be limited to 370A, or about 3x the CHAdeMO 125A limit. This will allow charging speeds that are slightly slower than the most common 150kW V2 Supercharger but faster than the 120kW Superchargers.

There will be minor but not very significant variation when using either the 150kW or 350kW stalls from Electrify America. Of course there’s also a large installed base of 50kW CCS stalls, which will charge at a similar rate as the CHAdeMO adapter.

 

[MP3Mike]

It's not about speed, it's about Tesla as we all damn know has an adapter for North America but for some unknown reason wants to drag there feet

How do we know that? Have you seen one?

 

[MP3Mike]

Speaking of expectations, the theorized and hoped for North American CCS1 adapter will likely be limited to 370A, or about 3x the CHAdeMO 125A limit. This will allow charging speeds that are slightly slower than the most common 150kW V2 Supercharger but faster than the 120kW Superchargers.

Aren't people seeing ~190kW charging with third party CCS chargers in Europe? (I swear that is what Bjorn has been reporting.)

So faster than 150kW V2 but slower than V3. (Though the charge curve is different so it probably doesn't make much difference.)

 

[Saghost]

Aren't people seeing ~190kW charging with third party CCS chargers in Europe? (I swear that is what Bjorn has been reporting.)

So faster than 150kW V2 but slower than V3. (Though the charge curve is different so it probably doesn't make much difference.)

People are seeing 190 kW with native CCS on EU model 3s.

We hadn't seen an EU CCS adapter charge curve until very recently when Bjorn gave us one.

It peaked at 370A, around 130-135 kW, and held there for the first half of the session or so, which is presumably why folks are assuming the US CCS adapter would do the same.

That was on a Raven car that's supposed to be able to take 200 kW from a v3 supercharger, so at the moment we're all assuming it was an adapter limitation.

 

[miimura]

The thing that you guys need to keep in mind is that the key to getting these high currents on CCS and SC V3 is that the cable and connector are cooled. With an adapter, you can only cool the connector on the station side and the vehicle side is uncooled. That inherently limits the amount of power or duration of high power that you can put through an adapter. That is likely why the Euro Model X Raven charges slower through a CCS adapter than it could on a V3 Supercharger or a native CCS port.

 

[Zoomit]

People are seeing 190 kW with native CCS on EU model 3s.

We hadn't seen an EU CCS adapter charge curve until very recently when Bjorn gave us one.

It peaked at 370A, around 130-135 kW, and held there for the first half of the session or so, which is presumably why folks are assuming the US CCS adapter would do the same.

That was on a Raven car that's supposed to be able to take 200 kW from a v3 supercharger, so at the moment we're all assuming it was an adapter limitation.

The thing that you guys need to keep in mind is that the key to getting these high currents on CCS and SC V3 is that the cable and connector are cooled. With an adapter, you can only cool the connector on the station side and the vehicle side is uncooled. That inherently limits the amount of power or duration of high power that you can put through an adapter. That is likely why the Euro Model X Raven charges slower through a CCS adapter than it could on a V3 Supercharger or a native CCS port.

Both excellent points. The 370A limit is because the adapter is uncooled. Tesla does allow more amps through the uncooled V2 cables but apparently is holding the CCS2 adapter to 370A.

Here’s my post summarizing example sessions on the 500A CCS2 stalls in the EU where an adapter is not necessary. These peak at 194kW into the 3 LR battery.

V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3

 

[darth_vad3r]

The thing that you guys need to keep in mind is that the key to getting these high currents on CCS and SC V3 is that the cable and connector are cooled. With an adapter, you can only cool the connector on the station side and the vehicle side is uncooled. That inherently limits the amount of power or duration of high power that you can put through an adapter. That is likely why the Euro Model X Raven charges slower through a CCS adapter than it could on a V3 Supercharger or a native CCS port.

I don’t see any fundamental difference here between the adapter and the car side which is also uncooled. The car wires are uncooled, right? If the adapter uses the same gauge as the uncooled car wires then there shouldn’t be an issue.

I think the cooling on the cabinet side is just as much if not more about keeping the cable happy for the next person in line rather than for your individual charge session. If you left your adapter there for the next person it would get hotter and hotter.

 

[miimura]

I don’t see any fundamental difference here between the adapter and the car side which is also uncooled. The car wires are uncooled, right? If the adapter uses the same gauge as the uncooled car wires then there shouldn’t be an issue.

I think the cooling on the cabinet side is just as much if not more about keeping the cable happy for the next person in line rather than for your individual charge session. If you left your adapter there for the next person it would get hotter and hotter.

The adapter is introducing another connection point. Every connection point has some contact resistance. That resistance generates heat. So, a direct CCS connection has one heat source and one side of that heat source is directly cooled. The second heat source at the vehicle side of an adapter has no direct cooling and must rely on heat conduction through the adapter and through the first connection point to get to the heat sink, the actively cooled CCS connector. This is the issue.

 

[ElectricEel]

How do we know that? Have you seen one?

**** this forum is dense. Yawl out here begging Elon for video games and spotify instead of things we can actually use.

They have the hardware for EU versions. Means the tech is clearly possible.

 

[diamond.g]

I am kind of surprised no third party has made an adapter yet. Even to see if the NA cars can natively talk PLC.

 

[miimura]

I am kind of surprised no third party has made an adapter yet. Even to see if the NA cars can natively talk PLC.

If I was on the charging team, I would make sure the PLC comms were turned off for cars with the North American Tesla charge port until the official CCS adapter was released. Dev builds excepted, of course.

 

[wws]

Nah man, 50kW is not bad at all. But some stations are getting far less than that. But there's is more, there's only one chademo for 7 CCS...!?

It's not about speed, it's about Tesla as we all damn know has an adapter for North America but for some unknown reason wants to drag there feet on something we actually need. As superchargers are getting overwhelmed with people.

When Supercharger sites with as many as 40 charging stalls are starting to fill up, a nearby CHAdeMO or two for overflow aren't going to make a lot of difference. Best use of CHAdeMO chargers are in places where there aren't any Superchargers nearby. Like in parts of Canada.

I do question the wisdom of EA only providing a single CHAdeMO at the majority of their sites. If in a location where they get a lot of Tesla business, it may behoove them to raise the ratio to earn more revenue from the site.

 

[Saghost]

I do question the wisdom of EA only providing a single CHAdeMO at the majority of their sites. If in a location where they get a lot of Tesla business, it may behoove them to raise the ratio to earn more revenue from the site.

VW doesn't build CHAdeMO cars. They're required by the terms of the settlement to provide support for both standards, but I think VW wants to provide as little help for their competition as they can.

 

[wws]

VW doesn't build CHAdeMO cars. They're required by the terms of the settlement to provide support for both standards, but I think VW wants to provide as little help for their competition as they can.

I guess it depends on how EAs performance is judged by its owners. If EA wants to maximize its revenue, they may find they have to eat some crow and do a better job for CHAdeMO customers. Specifically at select locations where they see a large amount of CHAdeMO charging.